Hydraulic lift plow hoses.

[TheOldHokie]

Judging from the circled decal in the photo... looks like you replaced a single joystick controller with that two lever spooler mechanism?

I'm curious, because we just had an issue on our joystick loader (Mahindra) control; where the base of the joystick failed. Guess what? You can't get the part. You CAN buy a whole joystick, for 1100 bucks.

What we ended up doing was using a proper sized hex nut as the center and welding a couple of steel bushings to flats of the hex nut to replicate the shape of the original cast part.

I'm wondering if you ran into a ridiculously expensive joystick controller repair yourself and just decided to delete it.

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As for Barnyard Engineering's comments about modern manufacturers using an alphabet soup of connector types.

I hold up my hand and exclaim an "Amen".

As for whether these newer types (especially the elastomeric) are more reliable than NPT... I don't know. I only have my sample of one. But I keep a little bag of O-rings on hand for my new (2018 Mahindra 6075) loader that has a few elastomerically-sealed couplers; because the o-rings just plain decide to give out at random times. It's a quick replacement; but still a nuisance.

Perhaps this picture will make things clearer. I added a two spool auxiliary valve next to the OEM loader valve. The auxiliary valve is a vanilla 4 way 3 position DCV that sells for a whopping $109 + $22 for the power beyond sleeve. Of course it has those pesky o-ring boss ports....

The OEM loader valve retails for $1075 and DOES NOT include the joystick control handle or linkage. The joystick is only sold as individual pieces so you would have been able to fix your problrm for less tha $100.

I dont know anything about your Mahindra valve but Kubota loader valves are "special" which almost justifies the crazy price. The boom spool is serial 4 way 4 position with detent float. The bucket spool is 4 way 3 position with regenerative dump. You wont find that sotting on the shelf snywhere but Kubota.

If I had to replace it with an aftermarket this $350 Brand joystick loader valve would be close. The boom spool is parallel but otherwise its a dead match. I would definitly miss the way the serial spool improves the operation of the loader but the Kubota valve commands a hefty premium. You can special order the. Brand valve with a serial spool but the lead time is long and the price difference is only a couple hundred dollars.

As to oring fittings - do not conflate the orings in a quick coupler with the ones on a ORB fitting. Its two different applications and designs. The coupler rings fail on a regular basis. The ORB port fittings will go decades with zero problems. I have multiple valves with ORB ports that demonstrate that.

In terms of hose fittings o-ring face seal (ORFS) is generally considered the gold standard.

TOH

 

[will-max dairy]

Just for the fun of it... here is the reliability data... for quick connect hydraulic connections...

(Edit... "Fails/E6 Op. Units"... is nerd-speak for Failures per million operating hours... a million hours is about 110 years... and no... the data doesn't talk about one part operating for 110 years... it's an average failure rate of, maybe a thousand parts operating for a few thousand hours... it generally doesn't account for wearout failures like you start seeing on 80 year old tractors, 60 year old balers and such...they start developing new failure mechanisms that aren't really accounted for in data like this)

Here is the data for hydraulic swivel connectors...

If you just go by the summary value of all entries... your quick connect is ... about 20 times more likely to fail... so whatever you do at the other end is kinda gravy.

Data for "Elbow, Pipe to Hose" is below... about the same as a swivel.

Perhaps this picture will make things clearer. I added a two spool auxiliary valve next to the OEM loader valve. The auxiliary valve is a vanilla 4 way 3 position DCV that sells for a whopping $109 + $22 for the power beyond sleeve. Of course it has those pesky o-ring boss ports....

View attachment 95961

The OEM loader valve retails for $1075 and DOES NOT include the joystick control handle or linkage. The joystick is only sold as individual pieces so you would have been able to fix your problrm for less tha $100.

I dont know anything about your Mahindra valve but Kubota loader valves are "special" which almost justifies the crazy price. The boom spool is serial 4 way 4 position with detent float. The bucket spool is 4 way 3 position with regenerative dump. You wont find that sotting on the shelf snywhere but Kubota.

If I had to replace it with an aftermarket this $350 Brand joystick loader valve would be close. The boom spool is parallel but otherwise its a dead match. I would definitly miss the way the serial spool improves the operation of the loader but the Kubota valve commands a hefty premium. You can special order the. Brand valve with a serial spool but the lead time is long and the price difference is only a couple hundred dollars.

View attachment 95962

As to oring fittings - do not conflate the orings in a quick coupler with the ones on a ORB fitting. Its two different applications and designs. The coupler rings fail on a regular basis. The ORB port fittings will go decades with zero problems. I have multiple valves ORB ports that demonstrate that.

In terms of hose fittings o-ring face seal (ORFS) is generally considered the gold standard.

TOH

I have access to arguably the world's larges failure rate database... so I looked up quick connects, swivels and such...

Millions of hours of data would bear out what you say. A quick connect is about 20x as likely to fail as a swivel.

The data doesn't parse out particular types (NPT, ORFS, etc)... but a swivel has about the same failure rate as the listing for "Elbow, Pipe to Hose"...

Seems that with modern swivels, you're about as reliable with a swivel as you are with an elbow trying to avoid a swivel.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Just for the fun of it... here is the reliability data... for quick connect hydraulic connections...

(Edit... "Fails/E6 Op. Units"... is nerd-speak for Failures per million operating hours... a million hours is about 110 years... and no... the data doesn't talk about one part operating for 110 years... it's an average failure rate of, maybe a thousand parts operating for a few thousand hours... it generally doesn't account for wearout failures like you start seeing on 80 year old tractors, 60 year old balers and such...they start developing new failure mechanisms that aren't really accounted for in data like this)

View attachment 95958

Here is the data for hydraulic swivel connectors...

View attachment 95959



If you just go by the summary value of all entries... your quick connect is ... about 20 times more likely to fail... so whatever you do at the other end is kinda gravy.

Data for "Elbow, Pipe to Hose" is below... about the same as a swivel.


I have access to arguably the world's larges failure rate database... so I looked up quick connects, swivels and such...

Millions of hours of data would bear out what you say. A quick connect is about 20x as likely to fail as a swivel.

The data doesn't parse out particular types (NPT, ORFS, etc)... but a swivel has about the same failure rate as the listing for "Elbow, Pipe to Hose"...

Seems that with modern swivels, you're about as reliable with a swivel as you are with an elbow trying to avoid a swivel.

Interesting data!!

Let me point out in my world I am not eliminating the elbow for reliability. I am replacing a rigid hose end with a swivel prinarilt to make assembly/disassembly easier. It also eliminates the mess and hassle of thread sealants. In the case of taper pipe elbows it also makes clocking the fitting easier. Anybody thats ever removed and reinstalled a pipe elbow should be familiar woth that issue. A couple OEM examples from the Kubota loader. You cant install that hose without some type of swivel.

TOH

 

[will-max dairy]

Interesting data!!

Let me point out in my world I am not eliminating the elbow for reliability. I am replacing a rigid hose end with a swivel prinarilt to make assembly/disassembly easier. It also eliminates the mess and hassle of thread sealants. In the case of taper pipe elbows it also makes clocking the fitting easier. Anybody thats ever removed and reinstalled a pipe elbow should be familiar woth that issue. A couple OEM examples from the Kubota loader. You cant install that hose without some type of swivel.

TOH

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Indeed.

In my little world of hydraulic experience, I think about our two haybines with lift rams, and a dump wagon with a cylinder hoist underneath. In all three cases, I avoided the initial cost of measuring exact and getting hoses made with proper swivels and such... so that I could go to TSC and buy premade lengths of NPT straight hose... with elbows at the rams.

Yes, I saved money.

Initially.

The trade off is that I ended up with the clocking issue; which I usually solve with brute force... you just overtighten until the clocking is right, and leaky NPT fittings where I join hose lengths, and at the NPT to Pioneer end, that require a tweak with the pipewrench about twice a year. I should say, never had a leak at the elbows or where the hose connects to them.

And even when I get the hoses to stop leaking, I'm always chasing leaks at the quick couplers on the tractor.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Indeed.

In my little world of hydraulic experience, I think about our two haybines with lift rams, and a dump wagon with a cylinder hoist underneath. In all three cases, I avoided the initial cost of measuring exact and getting hoses made with proper swivels and such... so that I could go to TSC and buy premade lengths of NPT straight hose... with elbows at the rams.

Yes, I saved money.

Initially.

The trade off is that I ended up with the clocking issue, and leaky NPT fittings that require a tweak with the pipewrench about twice a year.

And even when I get the hoses to stop leaking, I'm always chasing leaks at the quick couplers on the tractor.

The plumbing can be fixed. Couplers are a different matter. As the saying goes:

"You only get what you pay for and sometimes not evem that"

You can buy your way to some happiness. I started using these Faster 4SRHF push/pull connect under pressure couplers. Rigid mount, easy to connect/disconnect, and so far no leaks...

TOH

 

[paul]

I appreciate the safety message on using really hot items. Told in a calm interesting way.

I appreciate one fella really likes any expensive hard (for me) to find hydraulic fitting other than pipe thread.

In my world, pipe thread is available and cheap and common and works. All the other types are confusing and odd and hard to find in small town USA and cost a mint if you can find them. It is miserable to try to fix anything with such a mush mash of hyd connection types unless I suppose you own a hyd shop and have the many bins full of all the different odd leaky type of fittings.

Since the virus my local hyd shop has less and less fittings in their wall of hyd fittings, and it is just downright miserable to try to adapt all the goofy stuff to something I can source and get going again.

Myself, I try to move to pipe thread any chance I can, so my supply of parts can keep me running on the farm. Pipe thread is certainly the standard around here in the normal farming world. It is darn frustrating to be sitting for 2 days waiting for a hyd fitting when the small window of farming time goes by here, or having to drive several hours to hope to find a goofy fitting.

And swivels leak, avoid them any time I can.

Most of those goofy fittings leak in the real world, pipe thread you can snug up and it works. If it doesn’t you can replace for a couple bucks off the shelf and be back working in less than a half hour.

To each their own. I understand at least one fella feels different and that is fine.

Paul

 

[TheOldHokie]

People are entitled to an opinion and preference but I guess the entire fluid power industry missed the "swivel and o-ring hydraulic fittings are unreliable and leak" memo.

Apparently OEMs worldwide have been building leaky unreliable junk since the US military (WWII) and SAE (1950) first developed the AN/JIC fitting standards

 

[will-max dairy]

I appreciate the safety message on using really hot items. Told in a calm interesting way.

I appreciate one fella really likes any expensive hard (for me) to find hydraulic fitting other than pipe thread.

In my world, pipe thread is available and cheap and common and works. All the other types are confusing and odd and hard to find in small town USA and cost a mint if you can find them. It is miserable to try to fix anything with such a mush mash of hyd connection types unless I suppose you own a hyd shop and have the many bins full of all the different odd leaky type of fittings.

Since the virus my local hyd shop has less and less fittings in their wall of hyd fittings, and it is just downright miserable to try to adapt all the goofy stuff to something I can source and get going again.

Myself, I try to move to pipe thread any chance I can, so my supply of parts can keep me running on the farm. Pipe thread is certainly the standard around here in the normal farming world. It is darn frustrating to be sitting for 2 days waiting for a hyd fitting when the small window of farming time goes by here, or having to drive several hours to hope to find a goofy fitting.

And swivels leak, avoid them any time I can.

Most of those goofy fittings leak in the real world, pipe thread you can snug up and it works. If it doesn’t you can replace for a couple bucks off the shelf and be back working in less than a half hour.

To each their own. I understand at least one fella feels different and that is fine.

Paul

Reading your post and the one after it with the complex, swivel-populated modern hydraulics leads me to think about different circumstances. A farmer with a few pieces of hydraulic equipment, like myself, tends to think the way you do. I know what the acronym NPT means, and I probably have an elbow or fitting in my plumbing drawer, in a pinch.

But, if you look at the "panels" of 30+ hydraulic fittings in the post after yours, how could that be accomplished without swivels? Next to impossible.

Now... if we REALLY want to discuss a place where there are different standards for no discernible reason? How about air compressor quick connects? Whenever I go to the home improvement store to buy an adapter for a new air tool, I bring one of my old adapters with me. I can't tell the difference between the two standard types they sell, without having an example right in my hand for comparison; and I only do this... like... once a year... so I can't remember the name of the type that I have.

In the end, though... my day job is in electronics... we often have this discussion with electronic communication protocols. There are roughly 16 different communication protocols that can be used to move the same type of information at about the same bit rate. There is a standard joke about this, albeit gallows humor... Whenever a young buck looks at the, say 16 different protocols and says..."there should be a new, Universal Protocol"... us old bucks say... "and now there are 17"... lol

 

[TheOldHokie]

Reading your post and the one after it with the complex, swivel-populated modern hydraulics leads me to think about different circumstances. A farmer with a few pieces of hydraulic equipment, like myself, tends to think the way you do. I know what the acronym NPT means, and I probably have an elbow or fitting in my plumbing drawer, in a pinch.

But, if you look at the "panels" of 30+ hydraulic fittings in the post after yours, how could that be accomplished without swivels? Next to impossible.

Now... if we REALLY want to discuss a place where there are different standards for no discernible reason? How about air compressor quick connects? Whenever I go to the home improvement store to buy an adapter for a new air tool, I bring one of my old adapters with me. I can't tell the difference between the two standard types they sell, without having an example right in my hand for comparison; and I only do this... like... once a year... so I can't remember the name of the type that I have.

In the end, though... my day job is in electronics... we often have this discussion with electronic communication protocols. There are roughly 16 different communication protocols that can be used to move the same type of information at about the same bit rate. There is a standard joke about this, albeit gallows humor... Whenever a young buck looks at the, say 16 different protocols and says..."there should be a new, Universal Protocol"... us old bucks say... "and now there are 17"... lol

Before I retired my day job was in computer science and software engneering and I worked at one of the foremost standards and testing labs in the world. Developing, writing, reviewing, and editing standards put a roof over my head, food on the table, and my kids through college. IMO the world cant have too many standards

TOH

 

[paul]

Reading your post and the one after it with the complex, swivel-populated modern hydraulics leads me to think about different circumstances. A farmer with a few pieces of hydraulic equipment, like myself, tends to think the way you do. I know what the acronym NPT means, and I probably have an elbow or fitting in my plumbing drawer, in a pinch.

But, if you look at the "panels" of 30+ hydraulic fittings in the post after yours, how could that be accomplished without swivels? Next to impossible.

Now... if we REALLY want to discuss a place where there are different standards for no discernible reason? How about air compressor quick connects? Whenever I go to the home improvement store to buy an adapter for a new air tool, I bring one of my old adapters with me. I can't tell the difference between the two standard types they sell, without having an example right in my hand for comparison; and I only do this... like... once a year... so I can't remember the name of the type that I have.

In the end, though... my day job is in electronics... we often have this discussion with electronic communication protocols. There are roughly 16 different communication protocols that can be used to move the same type of information at about the same bit rate. There is a standard joke about this, albeit gallows humor... Whenever a young buck looks at the, say 16 different protocols and says..."there should be a new, Universal Protocol"... us old bucks say... "and now there are 17"... lol

Totally agree.

Dad had the less common third standard air fitting. I’ve stuck with it. T style I think, it’s the shortest one. I’ve found some Pioneer made universal air couplers that do seem to work with all 3 types of air couplers. I assume I’m giving up some longevity as ‘universal’ is always a compromise, but it has made life easier with the universal couplers - even works with the bizarre couplers you find on the very cheap import throw away items now and then.


If you are building a complicated modern hyd system and it goes on the new equipment that can only be dealer serviced any more, then of course a lot of complicated fittings will be used to create such a system, no other way. Those designing such things sit by a desk and rely upon data sheets of how long and how well something will work, and never have to get their hands dirty. Those buying such machines likewise call the dealer whenever the machine stops and never get dirty either. Trade off the equipment when the lease is up and move on, never own a fitting over 10 years old… It’s a fine system for those folk. Nothing wrong with that if you have the scale of size to do it.

If you run 1990s or older farm equipment and have to rely on your own wrenches and store of fittings in the back of the shed, then each and every hyd fitting, swivel, coupling, is a source of leaks and failure as machines age. The less swivels needed, the better. It’s really very simple - keep it simple.

I think on an old tractor forum this would be a simple concept for all to have figured out long ago.

Paul

 

[E.B. Haymakin']

While we're at it................short story related to hamburgers.

Back in 2022(judging by the date on the pic) I was doing some heat shrinking. In a hurry, and wasn't wearing gloves. I ALWAYS WEAR GLOVES WHEN DOING HOT WORK.

So anyways..............I managed to run a 500,000Btu heating torch across the top of my hand. Never never never never use a long torch with your left hand if you're right handed.

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Ran that sucker right across the top of my right hand. I mean it was like slow motion.............watched it happen. Couldn't do a thing about it. Many accidents happen this way.

Hustled on up in the house to run the hand under cold water from the tap. IT DIDN'T ACTUALLY HURT THAT BAD.

View attachment 95874
Bandaged it up with some Neosporin. This was Friday afternoon.

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Liked the Minions so bought the kit ROFLMAO Sits there waiting for Old Man Brain Frts.

So, by Sunday morning, it was starting to really bother me. It hurt pretty bad.

View attachment 95876
I don't figure it's getting any better. Been listening to K'kins for 2 days telling me to go to an ER. About this time, I listened.

Turned out it was a fairly decent 2nd degree burn. The pain was a good sign. The flesh hadn't been destroyed deep enough to ruin the nerves. They popped some Fentanyl in me, debreeded the thing, and we went on our way.

IT WAS AFTERNOON WHEN WE GOT OUT OF THE ER.............................SO BABE...............LET'S HIT CARL'S ON THE WAY HOME. She gave me the look, and folded her hands on her lap. At least I keep her on her toes. She's the best thing that ever happened to me.

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Took about a year for the stupid thing to fully heal. Looked like some kinda horror show when the skin started growing back.

If you ever have this happen................get it wet and cold FAST, get yer butt to the ER, and make sure the outpatient care involves Silver Pads. They kill the bacteria, and prevent infection in a burn wound...........allowing it to heal.

Anyways.............that's my Carl's Junior tale......................................

At least the hand is still attached, glad it made it. WOW!

 

[Northvale PA]

Yes I know this is YT but there is no need to be stuck in the past.

Here is a modern tractor. The hydraulic cylinders on the loader have NPT ports with male NPT to male JIC fittings. ALL of the hoses have JIC female swivel ends on them. The female quick connects for the loader valve have NPT ports and those hose ends have male NPT ends just like the OP is using. The hydrauluc top link has ORB ports and the two 90° hose ends on are male ORB live swivels that allow the hoses to change angles to match the movement of the cylinder Everything else on that tractor is either BSPP, ORB, or JIC.

The hydraulic industry pretty much abandoned taper pipe which requires a thread sealant decades ago in favor of much more reliable and easier to use ports and couplings with elastomeric or metal to metal face seals.

Dan

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Dan, I really like you have color coded your hoses with tape, but they are reversed. Why is that?

 

[Steven Allen]

The OP wants to attach two hoses to a plow. The set-up will mimic our two hoses to a brush hog. We have only had two sets of hoses on it over the last 40 years. NPT on the cylinder, quick-connects on the tractor. Once put in place with Teflon tape, neither set has ever leaked. Clocking the one hose involved exactly no trouble. Generic cylinder.

The OP is not trying to plumb an FEL, backhoe, or other complicated, multiple-cylinder equipment. IMHO, based on long use of a simple set-up, he has no need for anything other than the simple set-up.