IH diesel 444 tractor

[Redbanjo]

Im stumped. I’m a mechanic @ a local golf course.
I’ve never been as stumped as I am with this machine. It only starts on either. I’ve checked everything I can think of, even checked things that multiple sites have suggested in their threads. I’ve been literally working on this tractor off & on for a year now

Rebuilt the injectors
Rebuilt the injection pump
Rebuilt the starter
Check timing gears for woodruff key sheer & that it was timed correctly (twice)
Checked that there was no air in lines (pretty's strong pulses of fuel out of the lines.)
New battery
All the valves seem to be working properly

Any suggestions?
Any help would be great
Thank you

 

[wore out]

Im stumped. I’m a mechanic @ a local golf course.
I’ve never been as stumped as I am with this machine. It only starts on either. I’ve checked everything I can think of, even checked things that multiple sites have suggested in their threads. I’ve been literally working on this tractor off & on for a year now

Rebuilt the injectors
Rebuilt the injection pump
Rebuilt the starter
Check timing gears for woodruff key sheer & that it was timed correctly (twice)
Checked that there was no air in lines (pretty's strong pulses of fuel out of the lines.)
New battery
All the valves seem to be working properly

Any suggestions?
Any help would be great
Thank you

Possibly has low compression?

 

[Redbanjo]

I did a compression check on all of the cylinders & they were all in the lower 300’s psi……would that be considered sufficient compression for that tractor given its age?

 

[DanielW]

That's a little on the low side. Not terrible, but it would certainly make for harder starting. But (though I could be wrong) I'm pretty sure the 154 engine in those was just as notorious for hard starting as the 144 in the B275; those tractors are notoriously very, very hard starters. Have you checked to ensure all your glow plugs are working and are you using them (though not with ether)? Those engines often need some pretty extensive glow plug use to start, even in summer. I also think the same fuel filter issue applies to them as th B275 and B414 - i.e. that half the time when you go to buy a filter for them, it's the correct cannister size, but the inlet/outlet slot geometry is incorrect. Which causes restricted fuel flow and all sorts of starting g/rilunning problems. Might be worth looking into.

But my guess would be just a combination of a notoriously hard starting engine, low(ish) compression, and possibly glow plugs not functioning correctly.

 

[Redbanjo]

That's a little on the low side. Not terrible, but it would certainly make for harder starting. But (though I could be wrong) I'm pretty sure the 154 engine in those was just as notorious for hard starting as the 144 in the B275; those tractors are notoriously very, very hard starters. Have you checked to ensure all your glow plugs are working and are you using them (though not with ether)? Those engines often need some pretty extensive glow plug use to start, even in summer. I also think the same fuel filter issue applies to them as th B275 and B414 - i.e. that half the time when you go to buy a filter for them, it's the correct cannister size, but the inlet/outlet slot geometry is incorrect. Which causes restricted fuel flow and all sorts of starting g/rilunning problems. Might be worth looking into.

But my guess would be just a combination of a notoriously hard starting engine, low(ish) compression, and possibly glow plugs not functioning correctly.

Ok, thank you. I’ll check into those things & post what I find.
But I forgot to mention in my list that I installed new glow plugs. I will test to insure they’re working correctly.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

You said "it only starts on ether."

I have a very basic question: Does it run without ether once it's started?

 

[Redbanjo]

No, sir. I spray some either directly into intake (air cleaner off) & I’ll get black smoke & it starts up until the either has been used up & then dies. I try immediately to start again & it only turns over with puffs of white smoke out of the exhaust.

 

[Jim.ME]

Did you rebuild the pump and injectors or were they done and set up/calibrated by an injection system repair shop?

 

[DanielW]

Knowing that it only runs on ether changes my initial thoughts some. Do you know that it's actually getting fuel to the injectors? I'd crack one of the lines at the injectors and crank it to ensure there's at least fuel at the injectors. If there is, you might be into a little more complex injector/pump pressure testing. But if not, then check if there's at least fuel getting to the pump. Maybe it's the fuel canister concern that I mentioned earlier (this is assuming it's all bled properly?). Or a collapsed/blocked line?

 

[Redbanjo]

Injectors were rebuilt by a reputable diesel shop & I rebuilt the fuel injection pump & cordoned with “the bear” on line.

 

[Redbanjo]

Corresponded

 

[Redbanjo]

Fuel is getting thru the lines & to the injectors, & it’s a good stream…..I just don’t understand why it’s not getting into the combustion or pre-combustion chamber…..it’s like it’s just stuck there…..in the injectors.

 

[Tramway Guy]

Your timing could be off; if it were timed on the exhaust stroke instead of the power stroke!

 

[used red MN]

Get the glow plug checked out and working. Then try pull starting it with another tractor or 4wd pickup. Use one of the higher gears when you do this. Don’t pull it to fast and then let the clutch out that can ruin your clutch.

 

[Redbanjo]

Get the glow plug checked out and working. Then try pull starting it with another tractor or 4wd pickup. Use one of the higher gears when you do this. Don’t pull it to fast and then let the clutch out that can ruin your clutch.

I checked the timing last week when I had time to go up & work on it. The timing is as it should be, all the dots line up properly.

As for pulling the tractor, I’m not unposed to trying that eventually…..I am still baffled by the fact that I see it getting fuel out of the injector lines, there is pressure in the injectors when I crack the lines. And if it try’s to start on ether (I’m getting black smoke) why does it turn to white smoke after burning the ether off?!?!
I mean if it was a compression problem, it most likely wouldn’t start on the ether. If it was a timing problem, it shouldn’t start on ether either.
One the post I read somewhere (not sure where because I feel like I’ve read EVERY ONE on the internet that pertains to this issue) said to drain all of the engine oil, refill it with a substantially thicker oil, @ the same time put a couple ounces in the top of the cylinder & see if it gives you more compression possibly leading to easier start up…..
I’d like to exhaust every possibility to start it without having to pull it.
I’m even considering taking the head off to check the head gasket. But if I go that far I may as well have the engine rebuilt, but that may not be the reason it’s not starting.
Everything I’ve ever been taught since I’ve been turning wrenches tells you to diagnose before throwing parts @ a machine. I’m not sure what I’m missing. Like said, for some reason the fuel isn’t making it down into the combustion chamber or pre-combustion chamber.
What about hooking up a small electric pump to push the diesel fuel to the injection pump?
I know I’m kinda all over the map here, but I’m trying to think outside the box……

 

[DanielW]

It sounds like you're at the point where you need to have the pump pressure tested and confirm what the cracking pressure of the injectors is. Are you sure it's not getting fuel into the cylinders? If it's getting to the injectors but no further, there's not really much else it could be except something awry with your pump pressure or injector cracking pressure. If it is getting into the cylinders, that's another story. Could be timing, bad fuel (common these days, as bacteria feast in the hydrocarbons in modern diesel if it's been left sitting), or just really low compression. I assumed 300 psi would be reasonable enough to run, and I still think it should be. But reading online, other folks say the 154 should have more like 400-450 psi. (unlike the 144 which is more like 350 psi).

If you don't have or know anyone who can test pump pressures and injectors, I'd try a rudimentary test by pulling an injector and hooking it up outside of the head, watching for it to squirt fuel during cranking. If not squirting, it's almost certainly a pressure problem. Not uncommon for this to happen in scenarios like yours: The injectors were rebuilt and set with factory spec cracking pressures (probably around 2200 psi), whereas before they were probably a lot weaker with lower cracking pressure. The pump might have some worn internals that are causing it to produce lower pressure, not able to overcome the injector cracking pressure. Was the pump rebuilt and all components checked thoroughly (would involve some micrometers, gauges, and very fine measurements), or was it just a quick re-seal job?

Start with verifying that no diesel is getting past the injectors. If it's not, time to re-examine injectors and pump rebuild. If it is and assuming good fuel and correct timing, sounds like it might just be a result of poor compression. A worn engine will run on ether even when compression is too low to allow diesel to ignite.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

I checked the timing last week when I had time to go up & work on it. The timing is as it should be, all the dots line up properly.

As for pulling the tractor, I’m not unposed to trying that eventually…..I am still baffled by the fact that I see it getting fuel out of the injector lines, there is pressure in the injectors when I crack the lines. And if it try’s to start on ether (I’m getting black smoke) why does it turn to white smoke after burning the ether off?!?!
I mean if it was a compression problem, it most likely wouldn’t start on the ether. If it was a timing problem, it shouldn’t start on ether either.
One the post I read somewhere (not sure where because I feel like I’ve read EVERY ONE on the internet that pertains to this issue) said to drain all of the engine oil, refill it with a substantially thicker oil, @ the same time put a couple ounces in the top of the cylinder & see if it gives you more compression possibly leading to easier start up…..
I’d like to exhaust every possibility to start it without having to pull it.
I’m even considering taking the head off to check the head gasket. But if I go that far I may as well have the engine rebuilt, but that may not be the reason it’s not starting.
Everything I’ve ever been taught since I’ve been turning wrenches tells you to diagnose before throwing parts @ a machine. I’m not sure what I’m missing. Like said, for some reason the fuel isn’t making it down into the combustion chamber or pre-combustion chamber.
What about hooking up a small electric pump to push the diesel fuel to the injection pump?
I know I’m kinda all over the map here, but I’m trying to think outside the box……

If it was running before all this, even poorly, then the internals of the engine are fine. Better fuel delivery will yield at least the same running characteristics as before, but usually better.

Why does it turn to white smoke when the ether burns off? Timing. If it wasn't getting fuel at all it would not smoke at all. White smoke indicates that it's getting fuel. The marks can line up but if you're timed on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke, it will run on ether and smoke white the rest of the time.

 

[DanielW]

I'd also tend to agree with Barnyard regarding timing if you haven't already made sure you're not timing on the exhaust stroke. You mention that it shouldn't run at all if the timing is off, but that's not the case. I think you (Redbanjo) are thinking of the timing like a gas engine, where it needs to spark at the right time to fire at all. But with a diesel that's not the case. Your ether gets in the cylinder and fires near TDC of the compression stroke (or near enough to TDC to allow it to run) simply due to the auto-ignition of ether at that temp/pressure. So it will still run on either no matter when the injector is firing. But if that little squirt of diesel form the injectors is happening at the wrong time (i.e. near TDC on the Exhaust stroke rather than compression stroke), it's obviously not going to run on that diesel as it'll just kick it out the exhaust (white smoke). Definitely something to check.

 

[wore out]

I'd also tend to agree with Barnyard regarding timing if you haven't already made sure you're not timing on the exhaust stroke. You mention that it shouldn't run at all if the timing is off, but that's not the case. I think you (Redbanjo) are thinking of the timing like a gas engine, where it needs to spark at the right time to fire at all. But with a diesel that's not the case. Your ether gets in the cylinder and fires near TDC of the compression stroke (or near enough to TDC to allow it to run) simply due to the auto-ignition of ether at that temp/pressure. So it will still run on either no matter when the injector is firing. But if that little squirt of diesel form the injectors is happening at the wrong time (i.e. near TDC on the Exhaust stroke rather than compression stroke), it's obviously not going to run on that diesel as it'll just kick it out the exhaust (white smoke). Definitely something to check.

Pure ether doesn't make smoke, smoke shows it is getting fuel and the logical conclusion is that the fuel is being injected at the wrong time.

The O.P. needs to accept that fact and
do whatever is needed to get it "in time", it's NEVER gonna start and run 'til that is done.

 

[SidS]

Pure ether doesn't make smoke, smoke shows it is getting fuel and the logical conclusion is that the fuel is being injected at the wrong time.

The O.P. needs to accept that fact and
do whatever is needed to get it "in time", it's NEVER gonna start and run 'til that is done.

Pull injecters out, turn upside down and reconnect high pressure lines. When you crank over with starter you should get fuel delivery at nozzle openings. Do not put fingers by fuel delivery, just look. Alsomake sure that timing is not half off.