International 300u...back at it (2)

Dave H (MI)

Well-known Member
Was able to get back to it. I put it in 5th with TA engaged. I'm not as strong as I used to be but I think I can roll this tractor on a concrete floor. I rocked it and the fan does not turn. I have the starter unbolted and backed out about an inch and a half. I know this is second nature to many here, but I am out of my depth. I know the things that move in the engine, I just am not real sure which is the likely cause and how to tell if it is. Any help appreciated.
 
Well is not locked so it has to be electrical. If wired are all hooked up run a jumper cable to metal on tractor and hit starter button. Just tap starter button for half second or so. See what happens.
 
If on the remote chance, the engine is actually locked up, unless you have X-ray vision you can't tell what the cause is just by looking at the tractor from 5' away. You have to start pulling the engine apart until you find the problem.

HOWEVER, it is UNLIKELY that the engine is locked up. You said that it made a couple of revolutions before the puff of smoke. As people have been trying to tell you, the problem is a bad electrical connection. The connection got hotter and hotter until it finally burned. Carbon is an excellent insulator.

First thing, try to avoid getting worked up and going straight to "doom and gloom" every time there's a little hiccup.

If you really want to know that the engine is free, remove the starter completely, and use a flat-tipped pry bar to work the engine over using the teeth of the ring gear inside the starter hole.
 
First thing, try to avoid getting worked up and going straight to "doom and gloom" every time there's a little hiccup.
I completely agree with this an old tractor that is a bit cantankerous is really not worth much more than giving it a second thought. There are plenty of other items in this world that give a more worthy opportunity for this.
If you really want to know that the engine is free, remove the starter completely, and use a flat-tipped pry bar to work the engine over using the teeth of the ring gear inside the starter hole.
This is indeed a good recommendation. I am going to place a link to your first part of this so when these threads get separated in the future your back story is still connected. Previous thread
 
Took another look at it today. Don't misread sick and ticked off for gloom and whatever. Ticked off because I'm sick and wondering if I am going to have to buy another complete gasket set to get another head gasket if this thing goes south on me, but whatever it needs I guess. I did not do the starter thing. I know what people have been trying to tell me, but they were not standing next to the tractor when this happened. The starter was rebuilt last summer and it worked fine after. Could be a bad connection but, like I said, it was all turning over fine back then so I squirted some oil in the plug holes and closed up the shop for the winter. The starter was off the tractor this AM so I decided to try the flywheel first. I did not want to put a lot of force into this as I was afraid of breaking off one of the teeth. The flywheel would not budge. Not being up to 100% I thought maybe I was not strong enough so I put a chain on the front of the tractor and tried to move it with another tractor. It moved fine in neutral. In 5th with TA engaged it would not budge. Tried another gear and tried it without the TA. No joy. I did not see any point in putting the starter back, but I can if there is a reason to. Since I am looking at this as a learning experience, at this point I am wondering...if it were your tractor, what would you look at next?
 
In 5th with the TA lever forward (that is direct drive TA not engaged) if pulled and not moving or sliding tires, it is stuck!!!
I would use an endoscope (cheap using a smart phone) look in the cylinders through the spark plug holes. If things look Normal, I would then pull the head. Pain full as that would be. Jim
 
Was able to get back to it. I put it in 5th with TA engaged. I'm not as strong as I used to be but I think I can roll this tractor on a concrete floor. I rocked it and the fan does not turn. I have the starter unbolted and backed out about an inch and a half. I know this is second nature to many here, but I am out of my depth. I know the things that move in the engine, I just am not real sure which is the likely cause and how to tell if it is. Any help appreciated.
Took another look at it today. Don't misread sick and ticked off for gloom and whatever. Ticked off because I'm sick and wondering if I am going to have to buy another complete gasket set to get another head gasket if this thing goes south on me, but whatever it needs I guess. I did not do the starter thing. I know what people have been trying to tell me, but they were not standing next to the tractor when this happened. The starter was rebuilt last summer and it worked fine after. Could be a bad connection but, like I said, it was all turning over fine back then so I squirted some oil in the plug holes and closed up the shop for the winter. The starter was off the tractor this AM so I decided to try the flywheel first. I did not want to put a lot of force into this as I was afraid of breaking off one of the teeth. The flywheel would not budge. Not being up to 100% I thought maybe I was not strong enough so I put a chain on the front of the tractor and tried to move it with another tractor. It moved fine in neutral. In 5th with TA engaged it would not budge. Tried another gear and tried it without the TA. No joy. I did not see any point in putting the starter back, but I can if there is a reason to. Since I am looking at this as a learning experience, at this point I am wondering...if it were your tractor, what would you look at next?
Do you have the spark plugs out? If not, try cranking with them out. Let us know what happens. Mark.
 
I would squirt some diesel fuel in the cylinders. About a half cup each .Let set over night and then see what happens with the plugs out this would let any fuel left in a cylinder to come out with no damage and help to lubricate the piston and rings as they move . If it then rotates well put plugs back in and start it up. Or at least attempt to. If the starter then works you know it would now be up to fuel probably, if you have a good spark. If no spark you now get to tack that down. I think if it got to turning over I would just get it rolling over in gear and pull it around for a bit to get some oil moved through the engine by the oil pump this would lubricate the complete inside of the engine and all moving parts either with or without the plugs in. The faster you could make the engine spin over the better the oil pressure would be. Then get it to start.
 
I would squirt some diesel fuel in the cylinders. About a half cup each .Let set over night and then see what happens with the plugs out this would let any fuel left in a cylinder to come out with no damage and help to lubricate the piston and rings as they move . If it then rotates well put plugs back in and start it up. Or at least attempt to. If the starter then works you know it would now be up to fuel probably, if you have a good spark. If no spark you now get to tack that down. I think if it got to turning over I would just get it rolling over in gear and pull it around for a bit to get some oil moved through the engine by the oil pump this would lubricate the complete inside of the engine and all moving parts either with or without the plugs in. The faster you could make the engine spin over the better the oil pressure would be. Then get it to start.
That is really good info, thanks! If I can get it to turn over I will pull it around the hayfield a few times.
 
Yes, the plugs are out. I was worried about a stuck valve or such so I figured this would be a vent to any back pressure in a cylinder.
walmart endoscpoe $12 free shipppng
Did you try to turn it CCW (looking from the front) that is backwards, and a stuck valve will be free in that direction. it would assess the freedom to move the pistons. No need to rotate very far, just proof of concept. If it does turn CCW it may be a stuck valve. The idea of using a endoscope is still relevant. Jim
 
That is really good info, thanks! If I can get it to turn over I will pull it around the hayfield a few times.
I would suggest pulling it backwards first. For this 5th gear is always giving your wheels the most mechanical advantage to turn the engine. You will also need to have the TA locked back into reduction or “lo side” operation. The TA when in direct will keep the engine from turning backwards, so this could have been working against you when you were prying on the flywheel to turn it backwards. However, pulling it forward the TA lever needs to be ahead in the “direct” position. Otherwise the one way clutch will “over run” and not turn the engine.
 
If worried about a stuck valve the tappet cover would be something you could reseal after removal if you wanted to check for that. Just use a rubber mallet and tap them or pry each one open with a reasonable sized bar. a large screw driver should move them if not stuck. If one stays down it is stuck and then some oil mixed with a bit of diesel fuel would probably loosen it up about as fast as anything if you put valve seal on the stems you would need to get it in under them to soak around the stems down the guides.
 
I would suggest pulling it backwards first. For this 5th gear is always giving your wheels the most mechanical advantage to turn the engine. You will also need to have the TA locked back into reduction or “lo side” operation. The TA when in direct will keep the engine from turning backwards, so this could have been working against you when you were prying on the flywheel to turn it backwards. However, pulling it forward the TA lever needs to be ahead in the “direct” position. Otherwise the one way clutch will “over run” and not turn the engine.
I cannot get to the rear of the tractor to pull it with another tractor as it is backed into the shop. I would have to drag it out in the open and then would have a heck of a time getting it back in if it stayed stuck. There is enough room to push it back though, so I will try Saturday when I have a helper and hope for the best.
 
If worried about a stuck valve the tappet cover would be something you could reseal after removal if you wanted to check for that. Just use a rubber mallet and tap them or pry each one open with a reasonable sized bar. a large screw driver should move them if not stuck. If one stays down it is stuck and then some oil mixed with a bit of diesel fuel would probably loosen it up about as fast as anything if you put valve seal on the stems you would need to get it in under them to soak around the stems down the guides.
I was thinking that if it had a stuck valve keeping it from turning over that removing the plugs would get around that by relieving the pressure in the cylinder and effectively providing an intake and outtake as the engine turned. What I am not sure of is if the engine trying to open the valve would cause it to stick enough that the pressure relief would not matter? That's why I ask about these things. I don't always realize there are two sides to an issue. I will look at the valves Saturday as well. Meanwhile I will also squirt some diesel in the cylinders and let them soak until then.
 
I was thinking that if it had a stuck valve keeping it from turning over that removing the plugs would get around that by relieving the pressure in the cylinder and effectively providing an intake and outtake as the engine turned. What I am not sure of is if the engine trying to open the valve would cause it to stick enough that the pressure relief would not matter? That's why I ask about these things. I don't always realize there are two sides to an issue. I will look at the valves Saturday as well. Meanwhile I will also squirt some diesel in the cylinders and let them soak until then.
Compression pressure is not related to a stuck valve. in less than a minute the cylinder pressure goes to zero. That engine can be hand cranked against compression to start it manually! If a valve is stuck and you force it CW looking from the front, you can bend pushrods and break things. Going backwards 20 degrees or maybe 90 degrees of crank rotation should be OK. forcing is a bad idea. Jim
 
What Jim is saying is the valves have a mechanical connection to the engine not just a compressive action. So turning could cause them to do bad things like he describes. The reason I also said to tap them with a mallet or better pry them open with a large screwdriver Any that either don't move or do not return to their home position are either stuck or seating on the cam lobe pushed into the open position thus needing to be relieved by loosening the rocker shaft some. Any that are /were pushed open on a cam lobe would then be able to close or if not are stuck. Those would be the ones you would need to free up. With the rocker shaft off you could just turn it over without damage to the valve train since that would deactivate it. IF using the starter though it could cause push rods and lifted to pop up out of their seats and need being set back into the locations for them to work again properly. Turned by hand should be fairly easy with no valve operating and the plugs out so no compression. Would also probably alleviate the issue of displaced lifters and pushrods.
 
What Jim is saying is the valves have a mechanical connection to the engine not just a compressive action. So turning could cause them to do bad things like he describes. The reason I also said to tap them with a mallet or better pry them open with a large screwdriver Any that either don't move or do not return to their home position are either stuck or seating on the cam lobe pushed into the open position thus needing to be relieved by loosening the rocker shaft some. Any that are /were pushed open on a cam lobe would then be able to close or if not are stuck. Those would be the ones you would need to free up. With the rocker shaft off you could just turn it over without damage to the valve train since that would deactivate it. IF using the starter though it could cause push rods and lifted to pop up out of their seats and need being set back into the locations for them to work again properly. Turned by hand should be fairly easy with no valve operating and the plugs out so no compression. Would also probably alleviate the issue of displaced lifters and pushrods.
Here is a short video that explains how the valves work. Valve train video Air or an air/fuel mixture is compressible so whether a valve is open or shut makes no difference the engine will still turn. Yes the compression of air offers resistance but as Jim points out these engines can be hand cranked for starting so the resistance is not that high. When something non compressible is in a cylinder like liquid then you have a different story, that can lock the engine. If a valve was absolutely stuck and there was no other problem with the engine, I am pretty certain the starter has enough power and mechanical advantage that it would cause damage to some part of the valve train and not lock the engine. Most likely a push rod would bend and the engine would just keep turning. Now if the valve is stuck open you have a different scenario in which the piston hit a the valve. In reality, since this engine was just torn apart and reassembled not that long ago the possibility of stuck valves is extremely low, like in the probability range of less than 2 percent.
 
Was able to get back to it. I put it in 5th with TA engaged. I'm not as strong as I used to be but I think I can roll this tractor on a concrete floor. I rocked it and the fan does not turn. I have the starter unbolted and backed out about an inch and a half. I know this is second nature to many here, but I am out of my depth. I know the things that move in the engine, I just am not real sure which is the likely cause and how to tell if it is. Any help appreciated.
Today...Saturday Oct 19...After another 24 hour soak with diesel. I revisited trying to move the tractor forward with TA in the high position...or direct, or disengaged..whatever it is called. No joy. Then I put the TA in low and tried to push it backward...nothing. I pulled the rocker assembly back a bit and looked at the valves. Nothing jumped out at me as stuck but they have the springs on them so it is hard to tell. I tapped each one with a light hammer. When I had the head off I did remove all the valves, cleaned and lapped the seats. I do not remember handling the lifters. It is not out of the question that I did and cannot remember it. I know the rods sit on these and they ride on the cam shaft, but I am not sure how they are accessed? While the rocker assembly was backed off I did repeat the pull and push as described above but no difference. The tractor rolls in neutral so not a stuck brake. I hope I did the above right....there are a lot of posts here now and I read them all, take notes and then I have at it.
 
Today...Saturday Oct 19...After another 24 hour soak with diesel. I revisited trying to move the tractor forward with TA in the high position...or direct, or disengaged..whatever it is called. No joy. Then I put the TA in low and tried to push it backward...nothing. I pulled the rocker assembly back a bit and looked at the valves. Nothing jumped out at me as stuck but they have the springs on them so it is hard to tell. I tapped each one with a light hammer. When I had the head off I did remove all the valves, cleaned and lapped the seats. I do not remember handling the lifters. It is not out of the question that I did and cannot remember it. I know the rods sit on these and they ride on the cam shaft, but I am not sure how they are accessed? While the rocker assembly was backed off I did repeat the pull and push as described above but no difference. The tractor rolls in neutral so not a stuck brake. I hope I did the above right....there are a lot of posts here now and I read them all, take notes and then I have at it.
Lifters can be stuck. there is a cover on them that can be removed for access. turning the lifters in their bore is a sure sign that they are free. If they don't turn, they are stuck. (this assumes the rocker arms are off/loose. if the engine didn't turn backwards, there is more than a lifter stuck. I think it is time to pull the head! Though I am sorry that is needed. Jim
 

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