JD 3140 FEL hydraulic 3rd function diverter valve problem

[krankieone]

I have a 3140 john deere with a Challange front end loader I recently replaced the loader control valve and the 3rd function valve (which I use for the silage soft hands grab and a hydraulic Auger which I mount on the side of the bucket).This appeared to function normally until I took off the hay forks and put the bucket and auger on .Now if I press the 3rd function button the bucket curls down slowly the auger rotates if the joystick is moved in either direction if I release the 3rd function button loader functions as normal .The diverter valve is inserted in the bucket curl circuit and plumbing hasn't changed for replacement valve.
I don't have a lot of experience with hydraulics and want to understand what the problem is and hopefully how to fix it before getting another valve any help would be appreciated

 

[Tx Jim]

Sounds as if 3rd function control has failed allowing pressure to pass through valve at incorrect time. Challenger FEL control valve should have a closed center conversion plug I suggest to check CC plug inner seal to be sure it hasn't failed.

 

[used red MN]

Hello Krankie, welcome to YT. My question is where did you purchase the 3rd function? I assume it had instructions for the installation?

 

[krankieone]

Hello Krankie, welcome to YT. My question is where did you purchase the 3rd function? I assume it had instructions for the installation?

eBay store in Poland (I don't have a good local hydraulic store so living in rural Australia I was going to have it shipped from somewhere) the loader valve is Swedish(same as original) I didn't check the origins of the diverter no instructions for either .If I cant buy locally produced parts I prefer European or US manufactured ones on the grounds they have better metallurgy and QC

 

[used red MN]

eBay store in Poland (I don't have a good local hydraulic store so living in rural Australia I was going to have it shipped from somewhere) the loader valve is Swedish(same as original) I didn't check the origins of the diverter no instructions for either .If I cant buy locally produced parts I prefer European or US manufactured ones on the grounds they have better metallurgy and QC

In which case provide a manufacture, number or model of the 3rd funtion valve and also if possible a photo of the installation. Then we will have some information to help you figure out your issue. Also a general photo of what this is…”silage soft hands grab and a hydraulic Auger which I mount on the side of the bucket”?? Is this a “facing” attachment to cut back on spoilage by leaving the pile with a smooth face?

 

[Tx Jim]

Simple test for loader control valve to determine if it is configured for a 3140 closed center hyd system is remove control valve "return hose where attached to the tractor" & cap open orifice on the tractor. Now with ""FEl control valve levers in neutral position"", aim open hose in tractor hyd oil filler hole, start engine operating & no oil should exit open disconnected FEl control valve return oil hose.

 

[krankieone]

In which case provide a manufacture, number or model of the 3rd funtion valve and also if possible a photo of the installation. Then we will have some information to help you figure out your issue. Also a general photo of what this is…”silage soft hands grab and a hydraulic Auger which I mount on the side of the bucket”?? Is this a “facing” attachment to cut back on spoilage by leaving the pile with a smooth face?

View attachment 103008 soft hands silage grab
View attachment 103009 auger

will post some more pics when I can figger out how to get the photos off my phone

 

[krankieone]

 

[krankieone]

 

[krankieone]

 

[krankieone]

 

[Tx Jim]

Did you perform the SIMPLE HYDRAULIC TEST that I mentioned Wednesday???????

 

[krankieone]

The diverter valve is in the bucket curl / dump circuit the hydraulic fluid feeds in from the bucket side and under normal operation passes straight through and to the curl cylinders when the solenoid is operated it should cut off flow to the curl cylinders and allow the flow to be redirected to the third function if I now understand correctly. I am guessing the valve is not stroking the full way or it is passing (either way fairly annoying with a new valve) .

Does anyone have a surefire way of testing these valves

 

[krankieone]

Tx Jim
Sorry I missed that the loader valve is open centered as was the one that it replaced

 

[Tx Jim]

Tx Jim
Sorry I missed that the loader valve is open centered as was the one that it replaced

Open center valves on a closed center hyd system is a BIG NO-NO!!! Until you correct that problem your tractors hyd system will not ever operate correctly! What's the part # on the FEL control valve? I suggest for you to investigate installing a closed center conversion plug with correct inner seal(green color) if applicable for your present FEL control valve.

 

[used red MN]

Tx Jim
Sorry I missed that the loader valve is open centered as was the one that it replaced

Hopefully you mistakenly chose the wrong name of the valve(s), open vs. closed center. The tractors system is closed center, if you are operating a loader that has open center valves you are causing undo stress and wear on your hydraulic system. A closed center system holds a set “stand-by” pressure against a valve when it is closed. A pump for that system is able to maintain that pressure and not pump flow when the valve is closed. When the valve is opened the pump sees the need for flow and begins pumping to match the flow and attempts to maintain the set stand-by pressure. In an open center system the loader valve fluid flows freely in a circle from the pump through the valve back to the reservoir basically under no pressure. When you operate an open center valve the flow is then diverted to flow into the cylinder and only raises to the pressure it takes to move the cylinder ram to overcome the weight against it. When the valve is closed the flow goes back to the path returning to the reservoir. If you have an open-center(oc) valve on a close-center(cc) system the cc pump is pumping its maximum flow (stroke) continuously trying to reach the stand-by pressure which it can’t because the oc valve is allowing an open path for the fluid. When another valve designed as a cc valve is operated it is expecting the stand-by pressure to be against it and it opens to allow that pressurized fluid to flow in to operate the function. However the pressure is not there because it is flowing freely through the oc valve circuit back to the reservoir. Luckily, to a degree the tractors essential functions such as the steering and brakes have “priority valves” that allow them to get pressure and flow regardless of how the rest of the system is being operated. This leads the operator to believe all is well. I am not certain but I believe the same is true for the 3 point hitch, it may also be able to function even if a big boo boo like an oc valve is installed on the tractor. I see by your picture now that the “auger” is a post hole auger. Am I correct that the black knob adjust the grabbing pressure of the bale grapple? Somewhere there has to be a valve with electrical wires for a solenoid that operates the 3rd function diverter switch operates. I can’t see that in your pictures but we need to see it and its connections. In the screen shot show us what is going on with the lines above the photo. Also how do the auger hoses connect (arrow in photo) and to what? Photo of that please. In actuality if you indeed have open center valves on it that needs corrected and additional photos will be of no value.
Did you personally do all of the hydraulic system add-ons? If you paid someone to do all this it seems they have good fabrication skills, but lacked proper understanding of hydraulics to complete the task so it works properly with your tractor. Nothing against you if you did it, but you needed a little more research into your hydraulics systems functions.
For others here is a link to an example “soft hands” grapple. Example grapple

 

[Tx Jim]

When pressure on the closed center hyd system that JD utilizes reaches the set stand-by pressure(2250 psi) the hyd pump crankcase is filled with pressurized oil which pushes the pump pistons away from the lobe on the rotating pump shaft. The pistons being forced away from shaft causes the pump to stop pumping. When hyd pressure lowers in pump crankcase then springs push pistons back in contact with the the rotating shaft allowing pump to build pressure. Open center valve on closed center hyd system causes trans pump supply to front pump to be depleted causing front pump to runout of supply oil therefore have little to no pressure.

 

[used red MN]

Just an addition FYI, I personally would move that auger bracket to the back of the bucket so it is not sticking out in the way all the time for other loader bucket uses. The only reason not to would be concerns of the back of the bucket maybe not being heavy enough. I would think a 3/8” x 2” flat strap across the two bottom bolts inside the bucket would mitigate that concern. I suppose if you are replacing posts near a building or some type of rigid fencing then my idea would not be the best.