John Deere 4430, owner said it wont start without starting fluid

[bison]

I have a JD 4430 in my shop, it would not start without start fluid regardless of the weather.
Liners and pistons are within specs but i replaced the rings and rod bearings, i had a a valve job done and the head was shaved back to specs.
Injectors were tested and all but 2 were good to go, 2 of them got a new nozzle so all 6 are good.
I put the thing back together but it still wont fire up without starting fluid. the injection pump is in time with the crank and seems to deliver plenty diesel as smoke is pooring from the exhaust, Starter speed is fast.
Is this a JD thing or what could be the problem here.?

 

[Dieseltech]

Thanks D, that explains a lot.
Trying to figure out if actual timing cold or hot is correct is above my pay grade but i should be able to figure out that rod on the aneroid linkage.
The shop that did the valve job said he had to shave the head to bring valve protrusion back to specs and not because it was warped.
This is a reputable shop, i have used them for 40+ years and i never had a complaint about their work.
Compression on all 6 is between 270 to 300, low enough as far as i am concerned but it is what it is. There is no blow by i can detect so the rings are sealing well.
Had i known these 4430's were such cold start nightmares i would have looked at different options but that ship has sailed, i ain't about to tear the thing apart again and saddle that guy up with more costs. 1000 bucks will buy a lot of ether cans.lol.
I will advice him to put the damm thing in an auction.

That's probably why a lot of guys pay more for the higher compression aftermarket kits. I've been thinking of doing it on my 4630 because I HATE how it starts cold. No more than I use it the block heater cures that. The kits cost more but I've not heard anyone say they regretted installing the higher compression set due to how much better they cold start now.

 

[bison]

That's probably why a lot of guys pay more for the higher compression aftermarket kits. I've been thinking of doing it on my 4630 because I HATE how it starts cold. No more than I use it the block heater cures that. The kits cost more but I've not heard anyone say they regretted installing the higher compression set due to how much better they cold start now.

New development tonight.
First off, that 2380 IP must be a later model cause it shows in the manual it has this aneroid model which apparently is the later one. Right now it is in cold start mode i figured it out cause the engine fired in an instant in this setting( see pic) when i hit the key( no ether needed).Trying to to start in a cold engine in the warm mode it wont start at all unless ether is used. ( i found that out alright).
Now apparently the aneroid linkage has been in the engine warm position for many years cause that little bowden cable that is supposed to operate it no longer works( i gonna have a look at why not tomorrow).
So the no start problem is solved, tractor starts just fine cold with the cold start setting engaged. The ether can can go back on the shelf.
Customer will be happy and so am i.

 

[used red MN]

Interesting read.

Yesterday, I started my Ford 2N for the first time ever without touching the choke. It was 88 F outside.

Don't worry - If I were you, I'd want to shoot me too.

NF- Ever heard of Ray Bohacz who pod casts under the title The Hot Rod Farmer? In regards to how relative your reply is to this thread, it fits under the title of one of his segments “Idle Chatter”
If you care to give him a listen, here is a link to one of his pod casts from 7 years ago I picked at random.
The Hot Rod Farmer

 

[Dieseltech]

New development tonight.
First off, that 2380 IP must be a later model cause it shows in the manual it has this aneroid model which apparently is the later one. Right now it is in cold start mode i figured it out cause the engine fired in an instant in this setting( see pic) when i hit the key( no ether needed).Trying to to start in a cold engine in the warm mode it wont start at all unless ether is used. ( i found that out alright).
Now apparently the aneroid linkage has been in the engine warm position for many years cause that little bowden cable that is supposed to operate it no longer works( i gonna have a look at why not tomorrow).
So the no start problem is solved, tractor starts just fine cold with the cold start setting engaged. The ether can can go back on the shelf.
Customer will be happy and so am i.

That RAT TRAP linkage was always trouble, that's why the latest models used the small oil cylinder to eliminate it. I'd remove the bracket at the aneroid, then block OUT the shifting rod with a spring and pin so it STAYS OUT. The aneroid will no longer work but he probably won't care anyway.

 

[bison]

That RAT TRAP linkage was always trouble, that's why the latest models used the small oil cylinder to eliminate it. I'd remove the bracket at the aneroid, then block OUT the shifting rod with a spring and pin so it STAYS OUT. The aneroid will no longer work but he probably won't care anyway.

Does that not keep it always in cold start mode (excessive fuelling) ?

 

[Dieseltech]

Does that not keep it always in cold start mode (excessive fuelling) ?

Leaving that shift rod OUT all the time will not hurt the RUNNING operation of the engine at all IF the governor FULL LOAD stop screw has not been tampered with. With the rod out you might see some black smoke under hard acceleration, but that will clear as the turbo spools up to speed. A CORRECTLY set aneroid cuts the fuel back to a lower fuel setting when there's no turbo boost, then will allow the fuel increase WHEN it sees boost. If the aneroid turns on TOO slowly the engine response will be lazy, but engine will not ever smoke. The governor has a STARTING spring to pull the rack fully forward for starting ONLY, soon as the engine is at 400 RPM or higher the flyweights shut the rack back down out of the start position. The later Bosch and Denso pumps have a rack magnet to HOLD the rack forward until engine speed reaches about 1400 RPM, then the governor shuts it down. On tractors with a manual stop cable the operator can stop that cold rev up by QUICKLY pull and push the stop back in at about 800/1000 tach speed, That's what I do on my 4630 to stop the excess cold start smoke right after engine starts. It's always been interesting to me that the Case 70 series Bosch pumps always started better cold, with NO retard start plungers like JD used. Case DID smoke more during acceleration until the turbo spooled up though as they didn't have the aneroid.

 

[jhwis]

Leaving that shift rod OUT all the time will not hurt the RUNNING operation of the engine at all IF the governor FULL LOAD stop screw has not been tampered with. With the rod out you might see some black smoke under hard acceleration, but that will clear as the turbo spools up to speed. A CORRECTLY set aneroid cuts the fuel back to a lower fuel setting when there's no turbo boost, then will allow the fuel increase WHEN it sees boost. If the aneroid turns on TOO slowly the engine response will be lazy, but engine will not ever smoke. The governor has a STARTING spring to pull the rack fully forward for starting ONLY, soon as the engine is at 400 RPM or higher the flyweights shut the rack back down out of the start position. The later Bosch and Denso pumps have a rack magnet to HOLD the rack forward until engine speed reaches about 1400 RPM, then the governor shuts it down. On tractors with a manual stop cable the operator can stop that cold rev up by QUICKLY pull and push the stop back in at about 800/1000 tach speed, That's what I do on my 4630 to stop the excess cold start smoke right after engine starts. It's always been interesting to me that the Case 70 series Bosch pumps always started better cold, with NO retard start plungers like JD used. Case DID smoke more during acceleration until the turbo spooled up though as they didn't have the aneroid.

Lots of knowledge here. Good stuff.

 

[bison]

Leaving that shift rod OUT all the time will not hurt the RUNNING operation of the engine at all IF the governor FULL LOAD stop screw has not been tampered with. With the rod out you might see some black smoke under hard acceleration, but that will clear as the turbo spools up to speed. A CORRECTLY set aneroid cuts the fuel back to a lower fuel setting when there's no turbo boost, then will allow the fuel increase WHEN it sees boost. If the aneroid turns on TOO slowly the engine response will be lazy, but engine will not ever smoke. The governor has a STARTING spring to pull the rack fully forward for starting ONLY, soon as the engine is at 400 RPM or higher the flyweights shut the rack back down out of the start position. The later Bosch and Denso pumps have a rack magnet to HOLD the rack forward until engine speed reaches about 1400 RPM, then the governor shuts it down. On tractors with a manual stop cable the operator can stop that cold rev up by QUICKLY pull and push the stop back in at about 800/1000 tach speed, That's what I do on my 4630 to stop the excess cold start smoke right after engine starts. It's always been interesting to me that the Case 70 series Bosch pumps always started better cold, with NO retard start plungers like JD used. Case DID smoke more during acceleration until the turbo spooled up though as they didn't have the aneroid.

Ok i get it,
Thank you for the explanations. much appreciated.

 

[Fritz Maurer]

Ok i get it,
Thank you for the explanations. much appreciated.

I'm glad for you..... that must have been a harrowing experience. So am I reading this right.... you have good starting at 270+ psi?

 

[wore out]

Ok i get it,
Thank you for the explanations. much appreciated.

So, to be clear, does it start well cold with the aneroid pin pushed in or blocked out?

 

[Dieseltech]

So, to be clear, does it start well cold with the aneroid pin pushed in or blocked out?

It's OUT on this one. The JD 531 Bosch P pump engines need pushed IN to release the aneroid inside for cold starts.

 

[caterpillar guy]

All to complicated to follow without seeing it operate since I'm not around it or other Deere tractrso on a regular basis. My old IH models start better than that in warm or cold weather. The 1466 Will start down around 0 without ether and no block heater. I don't like doing that since the engine is dry till the oil pressure comes up. That takes a minute when that cold. The block heater warms the engine and as the oil flows over it the oil warms up too. I do know those Doncaster engines suck to start in cold weather though. Need heat if you are not in a sweat almost. Below about 50 they need heat or ether to start. Our was that way new. I sure do like the way those Cats will start right off in about 1-2 revolutions in cold even when worn some. Million miles and will crack right off. My 91 Would also with the injectors pouring fuel in the crankcase. Changed them and everything was still fine for running and starting. Guy I worked for had Deere tractors if the blockj heaters were not on in the later fall where we would be down around 40 or so he would take a salamander out and run off the generator to get that thing to start 8440with 40or 50 updates in some of it. 4440 was the same way no star in cold weather, need block heater and still smoke like a steamer both of them. I would have been embarrassed to see them if they were mine. Never found a cummapart to start so well either.

 

[bison]

So, to be clear, does it start well cold with the aneroid pin pushed in or blocked out?

Pin pulled out.

 

[bison]

I'm glad for you..... that must have been a harrowing experience. So am I reading this right.... you have good starting at 270+ psi?

Yes.

 

[620 John]

For what it's worth my '77 4430 with latter style pump has the android closed off. Yeah it smokes on acceleration but for getting the wagons moving it really helps. Otherwise these 30 series have a tendency to fall flat on their face when you let the clutch out if you don't have the rpms wound up.