Massey Harris 30 Distributor Wires to Sparkplugs

[northerner05]

Hi all,
I'm working on a 1950 Massey Harris 30 and having issues starting. Purchased as a project late last year.
Carb (and new float) is good, fuel delivery is good, intake is good, spark is strong. Unit is the classic 6V positive ground. I suspect the issue I have is the spark plug wiring order is incorrect. Would anyone be able to verify for me the order of the plug wires from the distributor? Or happen to have a photo of theirs? Firing order is 1-3-4-2 on the Continental 162. I cannot for the life of me find an electrical diagram for this model.
Thank you in advance!

 

[stevieb49829]

Is the firing order not cast into the top of the engine head? Are you saying it is an F162 Continental? If so, that is the correct firing order, and is the same for the 140 and 124. However, you have to remember that the rotor turns counterclockwise. It will make a difference on where you put the wires in the cap. Here's my 162 in a MH 101 Jr. Welcome to YT. steve

 

[northerner05]

Thank you Stevieb. Firing order is cast into the head on my F162. I have the same spark wire order as you--when it came to me the order was different, so I will also verify the timing. Spark plugs were replaced some time before the tractor came to me and they look like they look like they ran lean or perhaps the previous owner was never able to get it to run.

Did you do a 12V conversion? Another item I am considering is that perhaps the starter isn't turning over fast enough to get it going. Might be able to give it some more juice with the hand crank!

 

[Jim.ME]

Thank you Stevieb. Firing order is cast into the head on my F162. I have the same spark wire order as you--when it came to me the order was different, so I will also verify the timing. Spark plugs were replaced some time before the tractor came to me and they look like they look like they ran lean or perhaps the previous owner was never able to get it to run.

Did you do a 12V conversion? Another item I am considering is that perhaps the starter isn't turning over fast enough to get it going. Might be able to give it some more juice with the hand crank!

Welcome to the forums.

Not knowing if this was running prior to your repairs, then you pulled all the wires and lost where #1 was in the cap, you need to confirm where the rotor points when #1 is on compression. A picture or drawing only work to go by the location of #1 in the distributor cap only works if the distributor was installed with the rotor in the same location when #1 is on compression. You need to confirm the location of the rotor when #1 is on compression, as the first step, then install the wires by the firing order from there.

 

[northerner05]

Welcome to the forums.

Not knowing if this was running prior to your repairs, then you pulled all the wires and lost where #1 was in the cap, you need to confirm where the rotor points when #1 is on compression. A picture or drawing only work to go by the location of #1 in the distributor cap only works if the distributor was installed with the rotor in the same location when #1 is on compression. You need to confirm the location of the rotor when #1 is on compression, as the first step, then install the wires by the firing order from there.

Thank you Jim for the note. I will check this today. I labelled the wires with their initial configuration so I will be able to double check and determine if it was correct after all and see where I need to go from there if there is another issue at play.

 

[stevieb49829]

Thank you Stevieb. Firing order is cast into the head on my F162. I have the same spark wire order as you--when it came to me the order was different, so I will also verify the timing. Spark plugs were replaced some time before the tractor came to me and they look like they look like they ran lean or perhaps the previous owner was never able to get it to run.

Did you do a 12V conversion? Another item I am considering is that perhaps the starter isn't turning over fast enough to get it going. Might be able to give it some more juice with the hand crank!

Yes, I converted mine to 12 volt negative ground. It was a piece of cake since I had to rewire the whole tractor. Your MH 30 is the next version in the lineup, following the 101's, so yours is a lot like my two. I used a Delco 3 wire alternator to do one. I used a 1 wire to do the other one, because I had it sitting around, but I put the wires in the loom for a 3 wire. If you have nothing besides the ignition and the starter, you could rewire it to 12V negative ground and see if it will turn over better. The starter doesn't care, as long as you don't crank it continuously. The coil may get hot running it on 12 volts for an extended time without a ballast resistor. And any light bulbs will burn out quickly.

Your 6V system should work, as long as you have big enough battery cables, and good clean connections. 12V automotive cables are not big enough for a 6V battery. If they are getting hot when you try to start it with a 6V battery, they may be your problem.

We are assuming you know a little about timing an engine. So, just in case not, the timing mark is on the flywheel, and there is a viewing window into it on the bellhousing adapter plate. You can see the bolt that holds it in place just to the left and above the yellow cap in my pic. You won't have a cap there - that's a modification I did. Then make sure you are at TDC on the compression stroke, like Jim said, and mark your rotor position in the distributor. Be careful if you take the distributor out. The flange that fits into the slot in the head is offset to one side in the distributor. Many distributors have been broken tightening them down when they are 180 degrees off. steve

 

[northerner05]

Yes, I converted mine to 12 volt negative ground. It was a piece of cake since I had to rewire the whole tractor. Your MH 30 is the next version in the lineup, following the 101's, so yours is a lot like my two. I used a Delco 3 wire alternator to do one. I used a 1 wire to do the other one, because I had it sitting around, but I put the wires in the loom for a 3 wire. If you have nothing besides the ignition and the starter, you could rewire it to 12V negative ground and see if it will turn over better. The starter doesn't care, as long as you don't crank it continuously. The coil may get hot running it on 12 volts for an extended time without a ballast resistor. And any light bulbs will burn out quickly.

Your 6V system should work, as long as you have big enough battery cables, and good clean connections. 12V automotive cables are not big enough for a 6V battery. If they are getting hot when you try to start it with a 6V battery, they may be your problem.

We are assuming you know a little about timing an engine. So, just in case not, the timing mark is on the flywheel, and there is a viewing window into it on the bellhousing adapter plate. You can see the bolt that holds it in place just to the left and above the yellow cap in my pic. You won't have a cap there - that's a modification I did. Then make sure you are at TDC on the compression stroke, like Jim said, and mark your rotor position in the distributor. Be careful if you take the distributor out. The flange that fits into the slot in the head is offset to one side in the distributor. Many distributors have been broken tightening them down when they are 180 degrees off. steve

Interesting. I really appreciate the input. And you guesses correctly, I do not know much about timing outside what I have from a few MH manuals I have found (a few except the 30!!).
My system is just the ignition, starter and generator. I would need get a new bracket and adjuster for a 12V--that is, unless there are better direct fits. I found a delco 1-wire model that I have seen on youtube as a good option (Tractorman44).
I found the correct wiring order from the distributor and can almost get it to fire (it sputters and ALMOST goes, but not quite, some backfire out of the exhaust). Admittedly, I will only fill the carb bowl before I crank because I do not want it to flood. I understand these are hard to flood with the updraft carb, but when I received the machine, there was a bunch of gas in the oil--the float had failed along the seams and was completely full of gas, so this is why I am weary. Battery is on charge. Progress!

 

[northerner05]

Welcome to the forums.

Not knowing if this was running prior to your repairs, then you pulled all the wires and lost where #1 was in the cap, you need to confirm where the rotor points when #1 is on compression. A picture or drawing only work to go by the location of #1 in the distributor cap only works if the distributor was installed with the rotor in the same location when #1 is on compression. You need to confirm the location of the rotor when #1 is on compression, as the first step, then install the wires by the firing order from there.

Thank you! This worked. I pulled #1 and put a piece of paper towel on top and turned the engine with the hand crank until it compressed and popped the paper towel out. Wiring is different from what I have found in a couple other model manuals, but I have mine arranged properly now. Engine nearly fires now, sputters, with some sporadic backfire.

 

[stevieb49829]

Sounds like progress. If you are getting an "almost running", then you could loosen the distributor hold down just enough to be able to turn it and try turning the distributor just a few degrees in one direction. If you don't get better firing, turn it back the other way just a bit. If it starts and runs, keep moving the distributor back and forth until you hit the sweet spot were its running well, and tighten down the distributor. This isn't the exact way to do it - that takes a timing light. But it'll get it close. If it continues to sputter and backfire, you may have some sticky valves that might loosen up with a little running.

Search this site for alternator wiring diagrams. That discussion happens on a regular basis here and will be in the archives. I modified the existing generator bracket to position the alternator correctly and changed the pulley to a wider one to fit the belt. I can add some pics if you need them. steve

 

[northerner05]

Sounds like progress. If you are getting an "almost running", then you could loosen the distributor hold down just enough to be able to turn it and try turning the distributor just a few degrees in one direction. If you don't get better firing, turn it back the other way just a bit. If it starts and runs, keep moving the distributor back and forth until you hit the sweet spot were its running well, and tighten down the distributor. This isn't the exact way to do it - that takes a timing light. But it'll get it close. If it continues to sputter and backfire, you may have some sticky valves that might loosen up with a little running.

Search this site for alternator wiring diagrams. That discussion happens on a regular basis here and will be in the archives. I modified the existing generator bracket to position the alternator correctly and changed the pulley to a wider one to fit the belt. I can add some pics if you need them. steve

Played with timing and same result. Almost starting and then backfiring from the manifold and carb. Seemed to perform best were it was set initially.
Decided to pull off the valve cover and cranked the engine by hand to see if any were stuck and found that 3 or 4 that were indeed stuck and seemed to be pretty dry. I soaked them at the springs and from the spark plug holes with penetrating fluid and turned over the engine by hand several times. Going to let it soak for the night and then check tomorrow. Do you have any recommendations for aiding the free-up process? I am assuming that pulling is better than pushing--perhaps less chance of bending the valve stems?
Thank you again for your time Steve.
Progress!

 

[stevieb49829]

Played with timing and same result. Almost starting and then backfiring from the manifold and carb. Seemed to perform best were it was set initially.
Decided to pull off the valve cover and cranked the engine by hand to see if any were stuck and found that 3 or 4 that were indeed stuck and seemed to be pretty dry. I soaked them at the springs and from the spark plug holes with penetrating fluid and turned over the engine by hand several times. Going to let it soak for the night and then check tomorrow. Do you have any recommendations for aiding the free-up process? I am assuming that pulling is better than pushing--perhaps less chance of bending the valve stems?
Thank you again for your time Steve.
Progress!

For starters, I want to confirm your engine is an F162 Continental flathead? And you pulled the tappet cover off the side of the engine to view the valve stems, springs and lifters?

If you can assure that the cam lobe and lifter for a valve is down when the valve is stuck up, you can gently tap the top of the valve and see if it moves. But since this is an L-head Continental, you can't really do that without taking the head off. Sometimes that's all it takes is one time. Keep pouring the juice to it, and maybe try to gently pry the valve back down to the lifter. CAUTION: Thats a really good way to bend a valve stem. Short blocks of wood to fulcrum against the cast block rail, and a good prybar. You should also consider taking off the exhaust/intake manifold to get juice closer to the valve guide/valve stem. If the lifter is stuck, then work on getting it down first. I broke 3 of my valves off in a rusted block, and had to tear it completely down, to get the cam and lifters out of the way. Then a slender drift punch to pound the valve stems up and out of the guides.

 

[northerner05]

For starters, I want to confirm your engine is an F162 Continental flathead? And you pulled the tappet cover off the side of the engine to view the valve stems, springs and lifters?

If you can assure that the cam lobe and lifter for a valve is down when the valve is stuck up, you can gently tap the top of the valve and see if it moves. But since this is an L-head Continental, you can't really do that without taking the head off. Sometimes that's all it takes is one time. Keep pouring the juice to it, and maybe try to gently pry the valve back down to the lifter. Short blocks of wood to fulcrum against the cast block rail, and a good prybar. You should also consider taking off the exhaust/intake manifold to get juice closer to the valve guide/valve stem. If the lifter is stuck, then work on getting it down first. I broke 3 of my valves off in a rusted block, and had to tear it completely down, to get the cam and lifters out of the way. Then a slender drift punch to pound the valve stems up and out of the guides.

From what I can tell from research and config, it is an F162 (this tractor appears to be almost entirely original stock). Valve cover is on the side, behind the carb. Valves were rust-free, looks like it just sat a while without any lubricant. Top of valves are look to be ~1/4 to 1/3 diameter offset from the center of the sparkplug hole. Would be tough to tap the exact middle of the valve from the sparkplug hole.
I could see that they were stuck up as I turned over the engine by hand. Tappets would come up and down freely, but the valve stems and springs wouldn't move.
I think I was able to spray well up into the sticking locations from below and down the stems from the plug holes.
I'll try to pry from below tomorrow and see how it goes. I'm not too keen to pull the head, but if need be, I will (and get a new gasket--there are a few things I could stand to order for the project anyhow).

 

[stevieb49829]

From what I can tell from research and config, it is an F162 (this tractor appears to be almost entirely original stock). Valve cover is on the side, behind the carb. Valves were rust-free, looks like it just sat a while without any lubricant. Top of valves are look to be ~1/4 to 1/3 diameter offset from the center of the sparkplug hole. Would be tough to tap the exact middle of the valve from the sparkplug hole.
I could see that they were stuck up as I turned over the engine by hand. Tappets would come up and down freely, but the valve stems and springs wouldn't move.
I think I was able to spray well up into the sticking locations from below and down the stems from the plug holes.
I'll try to pry from below tomorrow and see how it goes. I'm not too keen to pull the head, but if need be, I will (and get a new gasket--there are a few things I could stand to order for the project anyhow).

Right now, I'd pull the manifold and get some juice right at the top of the valve guide in each of the ports. Of course, if Murphy is still looking over our shoulder, you WILL snap off at least one manifold bolt in the process . steve

 

[Bob H from Missouri]

From experience, don't try to tap a stuck valve down through the spark plug hole. I bought a MH Colt that had been sitting unused for years and a valve was stuck open. Soaked it for couple weeks with PB Blaster down the stem and I took a chance that it was lightly stuck but no. Head off and replace a bent valve later, it now runs like a champ.

Bob

 

[northerner05]

So I've been soaking the valves with penetrating fluid and removed the exhaust/intake manifold (all bolts are still intact!)on the F162 and I can get better access to what I'm working on. It is very difficult to get any sort of prybar on the bottom of the valve stems with the springs under load, being stuck in the up position. I'm wondering if I can grab the exposed valve stems and try and rotate the valves to help free them up. Does anyone know if the original (assuming here) valves from the 1950's continentals can be rotated/twisted or could this cause some issue that I am unaware of? Cannot find these topics in the overhaul manual or any other MH manuals I have. If I can get them moving(rotating) with some rubber-coated needle nose vise grips, I may be able to tap it down with a hammer gently and free up the valves that way (or so the tentative plan goes now).

There is no way to tap the top of the valve in this case, as the exhaust valves in question are offset completely from the spark plug hole, under the head.

I realize I'm drifting from significantly from the original topic of the thread, but this has become quite the adventure. Enjoying every minute of it.

Thanks again for the insight, and of course, your time.

 

[northerner05]

From experience, don't try to tap a stuck valve down through the spark plug hole. I bought a MH Colt that had been sitting unused for years and a valve was stuck open. Soaked it for couple weeks with PB Blaster down the stem and I took a chance that it was lightly stuck but no. Head off and replace a bent valve later, it now runs like a champ.

Bob

Hi Bob--when you took off the head did you loosen the bolts in the same sequence as tightening or did you do the opposite? Thank you!

 

[Bob H from Missouri]

I never really thought about a loosening sequence. When I take a head off, I usually just circle around the outside and work my way in to the middle. Maybe I've been doing it wrong for years but never had any ill effects. I do follow the manual's sequence and torque specs when installing though.

 

[Bob H from Missouri]

At least it is not difficult to find parts for that motor. Those were used in a lot of different manufacturers machines. Unlike the overhead valve MH engines that some parts are next to impossible to find. I have a dozen or more of the flathead Continentals stashed in the barn for parts.

 

[northerner05]

I never really thought about a loosening sequence. When I take a head off, I usually just circle around the outside and work my way in to the middle. Maybe I've been doing it wrong for years but never had any ill effects. I do follow the manual's sequence and torque specs when installing though.

Thanks again for your help Bob. Got the head off today. Need to clean everything up and then order a new gasket Monday.

 

[Bob H from Missouri]

Cool. Just got back to my computer. I have a couple of old wide blade screwdrivers and at the back of the head on each side just tap in the gap until the head loosens up. Then work my way forward. Messes up the head gasket but got to get it off somehow. Those heads seize up around the bolts. Made it easy to loosen up that stuck valve now.