new electric range/old range power supply

[JMOR]

No offense but I'm not sure if that is a good plan. Is the waterpipe as good as service ground? Is it actually a metal pipe where it goes under ground? Even if it is will it trip a breaker if a hot wire shorts to the chassis? In my humble opinion just bonding the ground to the neutral is a better solution.

I wasn’t supporting water pipe gnd, just pointing out that if he did, then the strap should be removed

 

[Ozlander]

If you are going to sell the house, don't change the stove.
Let the new people chose the stove they want.

 

[JMOR]

No offense but I'm not sure if that is a good plan. Is the waterpipe as good as service ground? Is it actually a metal pipe where it goes under ground? Even if it is will it trip a breaker if a hot wire shorts to the chassis? In my humble opinion just bonding the ground to the neutral is a better solution.

I wasn’t supporting water pipe gnd, just noting that strap needs to be removed if he did tie to pipe.

 

[Philip d]

If you are asking, "Will it work?" The answer is yes. If you are asking, "Is it to code?" Then the answer is no.

Exactly

 

[Goose]

This boggles my mind. If you can afford the price of the new stove, why not pay a bit extra and have it professionally installed? Then the onus is on someone else.

 

[olddavid]

I wasn’t supporting water pipe gnd, just pointing out that if he did, then the strap should be removed

I'm just saying that the ground and neutral wire need to trace back to the same point eventually whether it is in the stove or at the main panel (modern code). That is the only way to be certain that a short to the case would trip a breaker. I just recently saw a video on this forum that showed that an auxiliary ground may not draw enough current to do that which would leave the appliance electrically hot.

 

[JMOR]

If you are asking, "Will it work?" The answer is yes. If you are asking, "Is it to code?" Then the answer is no.

I say that without knowing what “code” jurisdiction he is operating under, we can’t honestly answer that question….every city, county, parish, whatever does not adopt the NEC or they may write their own or have none at all, as in my country place.

 

[John T]

Sorry I got here late I’m on my phone versus laptop snd not good at this

All I can say at this late date is WOW. How any electrical question draws out so many opinions be they lay or professional , always happens lol. There may be information or mis information posted

To keep it relatively short here’s how it was in all the years I practiced power distribution engineering

1. NO. I Do not advise creating a bootleg ground by using the white neutral for an equipment grounding conductor EGC. Neutral is for normal return current while EGC is only for fault cuttent return.
2 yes it can still work subject to design
3 proper would be to run s new 4 wire cable and 3 pole 4 wire grounding receptacle, that’s two hots, neutral, EGC,
in panel two hots red and black connect to s two pole 240 volt breaker, Egc to ground buss, neutral to neutral buss
6 true in typical main panel n and g buss are bonded, may be two busses or one for both n and g
7 old dryers used 3 wire new ones 4 I know why but not going into all that now

Warning. Do not take my word for this where fire and life safety are concerned consult the nec and professional electricians and engineers versus any forums or you tubes, lay gents and even yours truly It’s your home and life at risk… Code may have changed since I practice so see if other of the fine electricians and engineers on here agree with me or not ??? I can’t explain power engineering or the nec here and all the reasons for my answers above so do however you please is my thinking.

PS. An EGC would be connected to the outer metal case frame of an applience. If that, the case frame, is bootlegged to the neutral remember it’s a hot live current carrier and if you touch the frame with one hand and another body part is in contact with something grounded, your body is in a parallel current path with the hot neutral. I just advise against that but it’s your free decision I’m not telling anyone what to do or not do !!!!

Best wishe safe

John T. Retired BSEE

 

[John T]

A length of 8-3 w/ground and a new outlet are not that expensive. Since you want to sell the house, do it right. If the prospective buyer hires an inspector that is any decent they will flag it. Or just leave it for the buyer to replace. You could even go so far as to offer $x.xx in credit for new appliances. Then the buyer can get whatever they want.

My opinion, which may not align with code, metal water pipes should be grounded, but never used as a ground conductor. Why would you want to induce stray currents into your water system?

Mornin smoke, regarding metal utility pipes I can only relate how they were treated in the jurisdictions where I practiced and at those times per the then nec

When we bonded at the first disconnect, that bond and the ground buss were connected to a grounding electrode conductor which was required per nec then to be attached to

All readily available Grounding Electrodes. Such as but not limited to buried conductive utility pipes such as water pipes, driven in earth rods, structural building steel, etc etc

Sooooo yes conductive buried utility pipes were part of what’s called the grounding electrode system that connected to the neutral at the panels ng bond

That’s only per the nec when and where I practiced it may be different now or in other locations including yours

Hope this helps no warranty check with the nec and professional engineers and electricians and the several good engineers and electricians on here, see if they agree with me ?????

John T

 

[John T]

Is the range hooked to a sub-panel or the main? Makes a huge difference . Ground and neutral are supposed to be connected at the main, not at subs. Good practice and current code would have on bar for grounds and the other for neutrals and the two bonded.

Exactly good sir. Only one ng bond at the first disconnect only. Not again at subs yayyy

John T

 

[John T]

I have seen some non sparky gents with old two wire hone wiring systems bootleg the neutral to the ground terminal on 3 wire receptacles. I don’t favor that practice !!!! Not saying it don’t work. N is for normal return current while the EGC is only for fault current return ailowing the breaker to trip. As I noted above when and where I practiced the nec called for the grounding electrode conductor to be attached to

All readily available approved grounding electrodes

such as buried conductive water pipes and driven rods and structural steel etc etc.

The idea that you can drive a random non attached otherwise rod in the earth somewhere or attach to some water pipe that isn’t electrically part of the grounding electrode system described above and it serves as the EGC isn’t accurate. Mother earth alone is resistive and may not allow adequate fault current to flow to trip the breaker.

Only one ng bond,,, use the EGC for fault current only, don’t use bootleg grounds unless specifically called for by the maker and nec approved, attach the gec to all readily available approved by nec grounding electrides

No warranty check nec and professionals snd codes may change or be different in your area, see if the fine engineers and electricians here agree ??? If not I’m open and willing to learn new code requirements

Best wishes to all

John T

 

[buickanddeere]

How about wiring electrical devices properly instead of going for the quickest , cheapest and easiest?
We all know of people who regularly receive shocks from the household plumbing . Yet they do nothing about the open neutral and/or failed or missing ground system .
Running neutral current on the ground system or expecting the neutral to hold a device chassis to earth potential . That is an overly optimistic decision.
Depending on the soil and moisture . Even two 10ft copper clad ground rods may not be enough .
Last one around here was a ground plate buried 10ft down at the equipment shed .
Next spring when the generator connection is upgraded to more amps . There will be a ground cable connected to the well casing . And a ground plate buried 10ft down beside the house .

 

[olddavid]

Running neutral current on the ground system or expecting the neutral to hold a device chassis to earth potential . That is an overly optimistic decision.
Depending on the soil and moisture . Even two 10ft copper clad ground rods may not be enough .
Last one around here was a ground plate buried 10ft down at the equipment shed .
Next spring when the generator connection is upgraded to more amps . There will be a ground cable connected to the well casing . And a ground plate buried 10ft down beside the house .

Not sure about the generator grounds but using the neutral as a ground may be better than using an alternate ground. I've heard some furnaces won't run with an auxiliary generator until the ground and neutral are bonded together somewhere. There are lots of dryers and ovens wired that way to the older standards. The separate ground wire may be safer I guess but I don't think it's a dangerous situation if it's wired the other way.

 

[buickanddeere]

Not sure about the generator grounds but using the neutral as a ground may be better than using an alternate ground. I've heard some furnaces won't run with an auxiliary generator until the ground and neutral are bonded together somewhere. There are lots of dryers and ovens wired that way to the older standards. The separate ground wire may be safer I guess but I don't think it's a dangerous situation if it's wired the other way.

The furnace chassis and the neutral have to be at the near or same potential . In order for some of the sensors to operate properly.
If your house is properly wired . The cable from the breaker panel’s will have a neutral and ground at close to the same potential .
I have measured some ground rods at over 5V over true earth potential .

 

[ss55]

My current electric range has 2 hot and 1 ground. The new induction ranges require 2 hot,1 netutal and ground.
Can I wrap white tape on the ground and call it netural and then run a number 12 green wire from my copper cold water pipe to the range as a ground?
I have seen pics that show the ground and netural strapped together. If I need a new supply line then I will keep what I have. I want to upgrade kitchen with new range and dishwasher to sell home.. Thanks for the help on my other posts.

Unless your realtor actually suggested those upgrades, I would not bother. If those appliances are in poor condition, maybe just say those old appliances are not included with the house, and remove them before closing. Home buyers often have completely different tastes, and plans than sellers do. Appliances are very easy to change and come in a wide variety, your upgrades may not have any value in buyers eyes.

 

[John T]

Not sure about the generator grounds but using the neutral as a ground may be better than using an alternate ground. I've heard some furnaces won't run with an auxiliary generator until the ground and neutral are bonded together somewhere. There are lots of dryers and ovens wired that way to the older standards. The separate ground wire may be safer I guess but I don't think it's a dangerous situation if it's wired the other way.

Howdy again David fyi for others here. Grounding and bonding if a genset is similar to utility wiring. Iffffff it’s configured as a Seperate Derived Source it’s n is to be bonded and connected to a grounding electrode Sams as utility. However if not and there’s no neutral switching and it’s n and g are connected to the hones n and g like most do, no ground rod is required and the genset n should be floating. Sure it can still work otherwise.

I agree some modern devices won’t work if there’s no n g bond

Yes a proper EGC is the best path for fault current in a bonded system,,,,,yes other current paths might still work if low enough resistance and still wired proper. No it’s NOT best to use neutral for fault current even if it works z(a whole orher thread) and for sure Mother Earth alone is not a good fault current return path as it’s too resistive.

I’m sure you get all this but it may help others. I believe a this is still true but codes chenge so no warsnty. See if the other fine engineers and electricians in here agree ???

ps. There can be ways a bootleg ground is unsafe like if you attach the washer or dryers outer conductive metal frame to the neutral I tending it to serve as an EGC,,,, it becomes like the neutral a hot live current carrier. Say meybe one hand is on the dryer and another hand on another path back to the energy source And remember the neutral is a grounded conductor ,,,, say the neutral is carrying 15 amps,,,, say your two hands create another alternat path to carry return current ,,,,it only takes like 0.050 amps to cause the heart to fibrillate. That’s why I don’t like bootleg grounds snd attaching the dryer case frame to neutral.

Notice how the hot and n wires are insulated ??? Would you strip the insulation and touch one hand to it while standing in the bathtub ???

Yes bootleg grounds csn work but I’m not a fan of it. However I support anyone’s right to do as they pleaee

Note this is not perfect all right or ideal I can’t explain a lifetime of practice and the nec here in a few sentences. This is only my belief and opinion and people should not take my word for any of this where life safety is concerned consult the nec and professional engineers and electricians. I bet the engineers and electricians might agree with the above but if not I’m willing to learn

God bless all
Here be safe !!!

Ps. Yesss the old dryers worked !!! I’m only saying I prefer the later 4 wire systems with the frame connected to the EGC and don’t like connecting the frame to the hot live curtent carrying neutral. The neutral is insulated for a reason and I don’t like bonding it to the outer metal case frame if an appliance you touch !!!!! but that’s just me yet support anyone’s right to do as they darn well please yayyyy

Take care nice chatting with you sir

John T

 

[olddavid]

I can't argue with you John T. You have the experience. Yes, the separate grounding conductor is better but if voltage shorts to the chassis the breaker will trip in either situation. And while I don't touch a bare neutral it should have a very low potential across it if the wire is sized right. Just because it might be carrying 15 amps doesn't mean the potential will be high enough to hurt you. It will be very low. For instance, a #12 neutral wire has a resistance of 1.59 milliohms per foot. Using ohms law and assuming 15 amps passing through the neutral and a 50 ft run we get Voltage = 15 amps x 1.59 milliohms/1000 x 50 ft or 1.2 volts total drop. I don't think that would hurt you. Anyway, an interesting conversation. Take care.

 

[John T]

I can't argue with you John T. You have the experience. Yes, the separate grounding conductor is better but if voltage shorts to the chassis the breaker will trip in either situation. And while I don't touch a bare neutral it should have a very low potential across it if the wire is sized right. Just because it might be carrying 15 amps doesn't mean the potential will be high enough to hurt you. It will be very low. For instance, a #12 neutral wire has a resistance of 1.59 milliohms per foot. Using ohms law and assuming 15 amps passing through the neutral and a 50 ft run we get Voltage = 15 amps x 1.59 milliohms/1000 x 50 ft or 1.2 volts total drop. I don't think that would hurt you. Anyway, an interesting conversation. Take care.

I sure enjoy chatting with you David. Sure if you bonded the dryer to the neutral and there was a fault the breaker will
Trip X2 on that one !!!! We agree yayyy

However lol I studied the nec for years and it goes against what I learned and still it’s my professional opinion I don’t like it !!!

If you touch a bare neutral a grounded conductor with one hand and another object that had a return path to the
source such that your body can conduct cauuent and knowing it only takes like 0.050 amps to kill sorry I can’t favor that

Hey we can just agree to disagree on this with all due mutual respect. Its my years of study snd practice of the nec that leads me to the conclusion it’s best not to touch a neutral with the insulation stripped away (same as dryer that’s attached to neutral) with one hand and place other hand on something also electrically attached to where the neutral returns when only 0.050 amps can kill

That’s my story n Ima stickin to it while fully respecting others who don’t have a problem with it To each their own

Ps. I believe the nec and all the nec instructors I had would agree with me and perhaps other engineers and electricians but hey I met be wrong and will apologize if I am. Never too old to
Learn.

Great fun chat David thanks for your thoughts

God bless you and yours and any others who share or not share my opinion on this. Grrrr I still don’t like touching a hot live curtent carrying conductive and figure Theres a good reason neutrals are insulated Nuff said

John T. Long retired power engineer so I’m rusty and could be wrong on this one grrr lol

 

[olddavid]

God bless you and yours and any others who share or not share my opinion on this. Grrrr I still don’t like touching a hot live curtent carrying conductive and figure Theres a good reason neutrals are insulated Nuff said

We agree that the newer NEC codes require a separate ground wire from the first junction box after the meter whether it's a switch, breaker or whatever. The older code wiring is just grandfathered in, so we are in agreement. God bless you, too!

 

[John T]

We agree that the newer NEC codes require a separate ground wire from the first junction box after the meter whether it's a switch, breaker or whatever. The older code wiring is just grandfathered in, so we are in agreement. God bless you, too!

Thanks David God bless you and yours. Hey I’m glad the nec made that change but sure things still worked for years under the old. One thing I learned in those three year code update seminars was how many changes were due after there was a fire or someone got electrocuted. Gents like joe McPartland and Mike holt knew their stuff. I was hired once as an expert witness after a man was badly shocked and had to really study up on how maybe as little as 0.035 to 0. 050 amps near ticketr can cause death yikes.

Have a good one

John T