New Parts/Wiring and Starting Problem

mbramble

Member
52 8N side Mount 12V

This tractor was converted to 12V by a previous owner. It has an automotive type ignition switch, NO push button start switch and 4 terminal solenoid - and a rat's nest under the dash.

Today I installed a push button start switch, a 2 wire key switch and a 3 post solenoid. Also, new battery cables. Got it all together and decided to give it a try even though my new 12V coil isn't here yet and I removed the ceramic resistor from the coil primary + feed.
First thing I checked were my headlights and they work correctly. Then hit the start button with the key on and nothing!! Went through all the wiring to ensure all was connected correctly and couldn't find anything wrong. I had used one of JMORs picture grams.

I I turn the key on, I have 12V at the coil. I have 12V to one big terminal of the solenoid. When I hit the start button, nothing happens. Took the solenoid/ start button connection loose at the solenoid and just grounded the terminal - nothing happens. Checked the wire from the start button. It shows an open circuit to ground until I press the button at which time it gets shorted to ground. Pretty sure that's correct.
When I check resistance from the small solenoid terminal to ground (with the start button wire removed), it is shows a short. I don't think that should be like that...

Final thing I did was short the 2 big solenoid terminals together with the key switch on and it starts right up! Runs fine until I turn off the key switch and will not "jump"-start with the key switch off , as expected.

Does it sound to anyone like a bad solenoid? That's what it seems like to me...

Thanks
 
Last edited:
52 8N side Mount 12V

This tractor was converted to 12V by a previous owner. It has an automotive type ignition switch, NO push button start switch and 4 terminal solenoid - and a rat's nest under the dash.

Today I installed a push button start switch, a 2 wire key switch and a 3 post solenoid. Also, new battery cables. Got it all together and decided to give it a try even though my new 12V coil isn't here yet and I removed the ceramic resistor from the coil primary + feed.
First thing I checked were my headlights and they work correctly. Then hit the start button with the key on and nothing!! Went through all the wiring to ensure all was connected correctly and couldn't find anything wrong. I had used one of JMORs picture grams.

I I turn the key on, I have 12V at the coil. I have 12V to one big terminal of the solenoid. When I hit the start button, nothing happens. Took the solenoid/ start button connection loose at the solenoid and just grounded the terminal - nothing happens. Checked the wire from the start button. It shows an open circuit to ground until I press the button at which time it gets shorted to ground. Pretty sure that's correct.
When I check resistance from the small solenoid terminal to ground (with the start button wire removed), it is shows a short. I don't think that should be like that...

Final thing I did was short the 2 big solenoid terminals together with the key switch on and it starts right up! Runs fine until I turn off the key switch and will not "jump"-start with the key switch off , as expected.

Does it sound to anyone like a bad solenoid? That's what it seems like to me...

Thanks
Sounds like you may have a ground base solenoid (relay). What brand and part number is it? What happens if you use a jumper wire and apply battery power to the small terminal?
 
Sounds like you may have a ground base solenoid (relay). What brand and part number is it? What happens if you use a jumper wire and apply battery power to the small terminal?
I did not try to jumper 12V to the small solenoid terminal. I was considering it and then it started to rain!

I don't think that terminal is actually shorted to ground. With the wire connected from the push button, I measured resistance from the small solenoid terminal to ground. It was 3 or 4 ohms. When I pressed the start button, it was then shorted to ground.

This is the solenoid...
 
With the wire removed getting a reading of 3 or 4 ohms from the small terminal to the solenoid base sounds like it is not an insulated base. I may have missed it but I don't see anything calling it out as an insulated base. It wouldn't be the first time a solenoid was made wrong for the part number it is supposed to replace. With your ohmmeter see if you have continuity between one of the large studs and the small stud. If no reading between either large stud and the small one, try putting power to the small terminal and see what happens.
 
It appears to be an incorrect solenoid. Should be "ground to energize" instead of "B+ to energize". An isolated coil solenoid will work, with one of the terminals connected to B+ and the other to the start switch. Or get the proper solenoid.

I used to run into a lot of this when working on generators. Customer would take a solenoid in to the parts store, and they would sell them a "Ford" solenoid, which is wired wrong internally for some generators. Most of these solenoids look the same on the outside, but wired differently internally.

I have a regular automotive key switch on my 8N. The "start" position does nothing. The "run" position energizes the ignition system, as well providing B+ to the alternator to start it charging (and keep it charging) at idle RPM (300-400). No need to run engine speed up to start charging. The "acc" position likewise does nothing. Could probably use it to energize the headlights through a regular on/off switch. That way the lights go off when the key is removed; won't run the battery down! "Acc" is also energized with the switch in the "run" position. zuhnc
 
Try reversing the cables on the large solenoid posts.
I agree with this, the reason is that the pull in coil internally connects to one of the large side terminals. So the battery cable connects to that terminal and it energizes it all the time. The button grounds the small terminal connecting to the opposite end of the coil and it energies and pulls in the starter contact. The opposite large terminal that you likely have the battery cable on now has no connection to the coil, it is intended to energize the starter motor.
 
WOW! What in the world does the generator have to do with the starter solenoid!!?? How in the world can these people in need of helpful advice hope to get it here!!??
"Customer would take a solenoid in to the parts store, and they would sell them a "Ford" solenoid, which is wired wrong internally for some generators." I continually to be amazed!
 
WOW! What in the world does the generator have to do with the starter solenoid
Nothing. Speaking of portable, standby, and/or RV generators. If one pulls the starter solenoid off a tractor and takes it to the auto parts store, the counter person will probably just hand you a "Ford-style" solenoid, as it looks the same.

Don't continually denigrate other forum members posts, please, as has been observed.
 
I agree with this, the reason is that the pull in coil internally connects to one of the large side terminals. So the battery cable connects to that terminal and it energizes it all the time. The button grounds the small terminal connecting to the opposite end of the coil and it energies and pulls in the starter contact. The opposite large terminal that you likely have the battery cable on now has no connection to the coil, it is intended to energize the starter motor.
Thank you both!!

Having never had the correct electrical components (start button, 3 post solenoid, ignition swith) and with the solenoid mounted to the bottom side of the tool box, I wasn't sure about placement of the new solenoid. I did purchase the heavy copper bar to connect it to the starter. The solenoid had no markings on it at all. So -- I ASSuMEd the small terminal would be pointed away from the engine and towards the dash, simply because it seemed the most logical place since that pointed it in the general direction of the start button wire.

I went to Tractor Supply this morning and bought a new solenoid. Got home, opened it up and it had the BAT labeled as the opposite of the one I thought it would be. Turned the "old" solenoid around and now everything works perfectly!!

For the first time in the 13 years I've owned the tractor, I now have to put it in neutral to start it :) You would not believe how many times over the years I've forgotten to do that!! Luckily I was never in a position to do any damage trying to start it in gear.... Plus the rat's nest of wires under the dash is gone. I did install a 12V coil and removed the ceramic resistor just to get rid of a couple extra connections and now - it seems - it starts better than it ever has. Even this morning when it was pretty cold out, no choke was required and it started with the first bump of the start button.

Thanks for everyone's help!!
 

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