New pistons and valves for the 1963 cub. Questions?

[Paul 300 U]

My cub smoked a lot and had power issues. I decided to replace the valves and pistons.

I've removed the old valves, guides and pistons and honed the piston cylinders. I did measure piston skirts and for rod bearings and they measure within spec. My repairs here might be overkill but I figured this would be a good step to take care of issues. As usual, this is my first attempt at this type of repair.

I used a stone hone and diesel fuel. I lubricated the cylinders and periodically wiped down the hone. I honed in each direction for about 30 seconds for a total of one minute or cylinder. As you can see from the pictures there is a ring at the top of each cylinder. I realize now this was caused by the lip at the top of the cylinder. Should I do additional honing, this time setting the hone just below the lip or should I leave well enough alone. My goal was to remove the glaze and get a bit of the cross hatch back.

Second question. There is quite a bit of carbon build up and grime and I'm wondering the best way to effectively clean up so I can begin installing new parts. The first videos I watched seemed fairly casual and routine. Subsequent videos showing engines back from the machine shop and make it look like I'll need a surgical suite to clean properly.

I appreciate the help and feedback.
Thanks. Paul

 

[Janicholson]

The ridge at the top of each cylinder is unworn actual cylinder bore, because the piston rings are located lower on the piston. The new rings may actually hit this "ridge" causing breakage. The ridge is removed using a ridge reamer tool that mills out the ridge with a cutter as it rotates. Then finish up with a Bead style hone (250 grit is OK) the taper in the bore will cause ring travel as in expand/contract when they approach the worn area. will it use oil? yes but not as much. if the bore size below the ridge is .010" bigger in diameter than the bottom ov the bore it will be a barely OK repair. if much more than that it will smoke. Jim

 

[used red MN]

Ridge reamer
As far as the carbon etc, where is it at? Buff out the head with some wire wheels for a drill. Throw the head in water a day or so and the carbon will be soften up quite a bit by then. Scrape out the valve ports the best you can. Keep in mind that those engine don’t have full flow oil filtration so anything that ends up in the oil if it is small enough to get through the pickup screen it is going right to the bearings.
What are you doing to cut/grind.. resurface the valve seats? Hope you’re not planning on a GL lapp job to do it. Never was much of a believer in that hack job. It is kind of tough in those flat head engines and it doesn’t look like you have the engine out. You would have to find someone that has a valve seat grinder set that would do a “house call” probably not happening, for much less than half of what your tractor is worth. You could get some “Neway” seat cutters, probably be in it at least $150 to $300 to do that. I guess they have some cheapies on Jung-azon have to make sure they have the right sized pilot for your stem diameter. Carbide seat cutter

 

[560Dennis]

I noticed a long vertical score mark on number 3 cylinder wall . Recommends it be corrected ask local machine shop. The dinge ball hone won’t get that out

measure cylinder walls according to the manual. You got one ? these are critical measurements ,don’t guess , you don’t want to pay the price of a redo .
Your not over kill , but under Kill your project.
getting new valves ?
I trust the video from machine shop .i get three video’s that say same thing to verify what is factual .

 

[Fritz Maurer]

If you cut ridge off and put your straight-stone back in for a few more seconds, much of that black band will go away.

If you do pursue the ridge reamer, bear in mind you may not get all the ridge out, due to how out of round your cylinders may be. You'll see the cutter begin to contact the ring travel area of the cylinder wall before the ridge is completely gone in other areas. When you reach this point, stop. Give it quick clean up with the hone of your choice and your cylinders are ready. You will have gotten rid of enough of that ridge to avoid trouble.

 

[Paul 300 U]

The ridge at the top of each cylinder is unworn actual cylinder bore, because the piston rings are located lower on the piston. The new rings may actually hit this "ridge" causing breakage. The ridge is removed using a ridge reamer tool that mills out the ridge with a cutter as it rotates. Then finish up with a Bead style hone (250 grit is OK) the taper in the bore will cause ring travel as in expand/contract when they approach the worn area. will it use oil? yes but not as much. if the bore size below the ridge is .010" bigger in diameter than the bottom ov the bore it will be a barely OK repair.

The ridge at the top of each cylinder is unworn actual cylinder bore, because the piston rings are located lower on the piston. The new rings may actually hit this "ridge" causing breakage. The ridge is removed using a ridge reamer tool that mills out the ridge with a cutter as it rotates. Then finish up with a Bead style hone (250 grit is OK) the taper in the bore will cause ring travel as in expand/contract when they approach the worn area. will it use oil? yes but not as much. if the bore size below the ridge is .010" bigger in diameter than the bottom ov the bore it will be a barely OK repair. if much more than that it will smoke. Jim

if much more than that it will smoke. Jim

Thanks Jim. I will purchase a ridge reemer and a bead style I hone. I'm getting the feeling that there may be another question or two as this project continues! Paul

 

[Paul 300 U]

Ridge reamer
As far as the carbon etc, where is it at? Buff out the head with some wire wheels for a drill. Throw the head in water a day or so and the carbon will be soften up quite a bit by then. Scrape out the valve ports the best you can. Keep in mind that those engine don’t have full flow oil filtration so anything that ends up in the oil if it is small enough to get through the pickup screen it is going right to the bearings.
What are you doing to cut/grind.. resurface the valve seats? Hope you’re not planning on a GL lapp job to do it. Never was much of a believer in that hack job. It is kind of tough in those flat head engines and it doesn’t look like you have the engine out. You would have to find someone that has a valve seat grinder set that would do a “house call” probably not happening, for much less than half of what your tractor is worth. You could get some “Neway” seat cutters, probably be in it at least $150 to $300 to do that. I guess they have some cheapies on Jung-azon have to make sure they have the right sized pilot for your stem diameter. Carbide seat cutter

Thanks for the reply used red MN! I will buff with wire wheels as you recommend. The engine is not out so I will have to be extra careful to get it clean. Do you recommend power washer for this or will a bucket of Dawn soap and a bucket work.

I will be buying a ridge reamer. Thanks for the link. And, yes I'll be using one of those suction cup valve grinders but I'll look into the valve seat grinder you recommend. Thanks! Paul

 

[caterpillar guy]

Measure the taper in the cylinder. You need a telescoping gauge for that and a mic of that size another words if is a 2.5 inch hole you need a 2-3 mic then measure the ends of the telescoping gauge with the mic after you let it out to the cylinder walls. It is best to have a rounded end on the telescoping gauge so you get the wall not a void from a flat end. Measure your piston skirts and tops for taper and out of round. These all make differences in how long and well your work lasts. A good ridge reamer should clean up the complete ridge on the top of the cylinder. I have not used one in many years and it was a borrowed one from a friend of dad's. A piston ring compressor is the easiest way to put the rings in after you fit them and have them on the piston. We always just used one of the rings to clean the carbon and deposits out of the ring groove if we used the old pistons over . IF you don't you will probably wind up with an engine so tight it will not turn over. My brother did that once when he was about 16or 18 on his first overhaul. They make and sell ring groove cleaners and they probably work easier then an old ring piece. Big thing is to see that the groove is clean. I don't know if you really need to use a valve seat cutter unless you can install the seats yourself. They don't just set in there. They need to be pressed in or swaged in so they don't come loose. I've ground a lot of valves with good results with an electric drill and valve grinding compound .When I was done they would wipe out a pencil mark across the seat so must be pretty tight and fit well. I marked them in 4or 5 place around each seat . You will not be able to do that with the valves in the head unless you can get one of those suction cuop deals with a bit of stem to fit a drill in the top end. Oil your guides and spin them some to hone them out a bit to fit. IF this was a diesel I would not recommend doing valves this way since the compression is all. important to starting on them.

 

[Janicholson]

Measure the taper in the cylinder. You need a telescoping gauge for that and a mic of that size another words if is a 2.5 inch hole you need a 2-3 mic then measure the ends of the telescoping gauge with the mic after you let it out to the cylinder walls. It is best to have a rounded end on the telescoping gauge so you get the wall not a void from a flat end. Measure your piston skirts and tops for taper and out of round. These all make differences in how long and well your work lasts. A good ridge reamer should clean up the complete ridge on the top of the cylinder. I have not used one in many years and it was a borrowed one from a friend of dad's. A piston ring compressor is the easiest way to put the rings in after you fit them and have them on the piston. We always just used one of the rings to clean the carbon and deposits out of the ring groove if we used the old pistons over . IF you don't you will probably wind up with an engine so tight it will not turn over. My brother did that once when he was about 16or 18 on his first overhaul. They make and sell ring groove cleaners and they probably work easier then an old ring piece. Big thing is to see that the groove is clean. I don't know if you really need to use a valve seat cutter unless you can install the seats yourself. They don't just set in there. They need to be pressed in or swaged in so they don't come loose. I've ground a lot of valves with good results with an electric drill and valve grinding compound .When I was done they would wipe out a pencil mark across the seat so must be pretty tight and fit well. I marked them in 4or 5 place around each seat . You will not be able to do that with the valves in the head unless you can get one of those suction cuop deals with a bit of stem to fit a drill in the top end. Oil your guides and spin them some to hone them out a bit to fit. IF this was a diesel I would not recommend doing valves this way since the compression is all. important to starting on them.

Not a flame!! Valves in the block, flat head! after seating the valves it is also necessary to set their clearance as it changes with the above. Jim

 

[Roger in Iowa]

Thanks Jim. I will purchase a ridge reemer and a bead style I hone. I'm getting the feeling that there may be another question or two as this project continues! Paul

You can borrow a ridge reamer from O'Reilly
Or other auto parts stores.

 

[Fritz Maurer]

Question for the group: Why, in a sleeveless block, are the cylinders marked with letters , as if for selective sleeves?

 

[Jim Becker]

Question for the group: Why, in a sleeveless block, are the cylinders marked with letters , as if for selective sleeves?

For selective pistons.

 

[caterpillar guy]

You will if using new pistons want to check each with the bores to get the tightest fit on each one. People though T.V. digressed on some of these things but he really was right on them with old bores being used without new bores the out of round and pistons being matched and the wear to one side of pistons because of the rotation and combustion causing them to tilt in the bore as they moved. I like im do get a bit wandered out in to left field sometimes too. And Jim is right about the clearance adjustment after the valves are fit in the block as they do change just like they do with ohv (over head valve) engines.

 

[Fritz Maurer]

I noticed a long vertical score mark on number 3 cylinder wall . Recommends it be corrected ask local machine shop. The dinge ball hone won’t get that out

measure cylinder walls according to the manual. You got one ? these are critical measurements ,don’t guess , you don’t want to pay the price of a redo .
Your not over kill , but under Kill your project.
getting new valves ?
I trust the video from machine shop .i get three video’s that say same thing to verify what is factual .

That is one thing I dislike about a ball hone. They hone EVERYTHING; in places that the rings have no prayer of touching. Looks like a fresh bore job when it's done.

With a flat hone, it can be seen how horrible the cylinder really is. That gouge in the cylinder would never be apparent with a ball hone, nor the actual wear of the cylinder below the ridge.

Not really down on ball hones but I think this particular engine is the wrong place for one.

 

[560Dennis]

Question is that photo of the valve seats before or after ?

 

[Paul 300 U]

I noticed a long vertical score mark on number 3 cylinder wall . Recommends it be corrected ask local machine shop. The dinge ball hone won’t get that out

measure cylinder walls according to the manual. You got one ? these are critical measurements ,don’t guess , you don’t want to pay the price of a redo .
Your not over kill , but under Kill your project.
getting new valves ?
I trust the video from machine shop .i get three video’s that say same thing to verify what is factual .

Dennis. I think that mark is more of a stain from the light coat of oil and dirt in the cylinder. I can rub since of it off and you cannot feel it at all with your fingers. Thanks!

 

[Paul 300 U]

Measure the taper in the cylinder. You need a telescoping gauge for that and a mic of that size another words if is a 2.5 inch hole you need a 2-3 mic then measure the ends of the telescoping gauge with the mic after you let it out to the cylinder walls. It is best to have a rounded end on the telescoping gauge so you get the wall not a void from a flat end. Measure your piston skirts and tops for taper and out of round. These all make differences in how long and well your work lasts. A good ridge reamer should clean up the complete ridge on the top of the cylinder. I have not used one in many years and it was a borrowed one from a friend of dad's. A piston ring compressor is the easiest way to put the rings in after you fit them and have them on the piston. We always just used one of the rings to clean the carbon and deposits out of the ring groove if we used the old pistons over . IF you don't you will probably wind up with an engine so tight it will not turn over. My brother did that once when he was about 16or 18 on his first overhaul. They make and sell ring groove cleaners and they probably work easier then an old ring piece. Big thing is to see that the groove is clean. I don't know if you really need to use a valve seat cutter unless you can install the seats yourself. They don't just set in there. They need to be pressed in or swaged in so they don't come loose. I've ground a lot of valves with good results with an electric drill and valve grinding compound .When I was done they would wipe out a pencil mark across the seat so must be pretty tight and fit well. I marked them in 4or 5 place around each seat . You will not be able to do that with the valves in the head unless you can get one of those suction cuop deals with a bit of stem to fit a drill in the top end. Oil your guides and spin them some to hone them out a bit to fit. IF this was a diesel I would not recommend doing valves this way since the compression is all. important to starting on them.

Caterpillar Guy. Thanks for all of the advice. I'm using new pistons. My local mechanic lent me his "drivers" to install the new valve guides. I'll be sure to give the guides a good oiling before I insert them. I'll be installing the new valves using the suction cup device and valve grinding compound. Thanks Paul

 

[Paul 300 U]

Not a flame!! Valves in the block, flat head! after seating the valves it is also necessary to set their clearance as it changes with the above. Jim

Hi Jim. Not sure what the "Not a a flame!!..." comment is in reference to. Also, How do I set the valves clearance? Thanks.

 

[Paul 300 U]

You can borrow a ridge reamer from O'Reilly
Or other auto parts stores.

Thanks for the tip Roger! I checked my O'Reilly's and they do not have one. I'll look around some more. Thanks Paul

 

[Paul 300 U]

My cub smoked a lot and had power issues. I decided to replace the valves and pistons.

I've removed the old valves, guides and pistons and honed the piston cylinders. I did measure piston skirts and for rod bearings and they measure within spec. My repairs here might be overkill but I figured this would be a good step to take care of issues. As usual, this is my first attempt at this type of repair.

I used a stone hone and diesel fuel. I lubricated the cylinders and periodically wiped down the hone. I honed in each direction for about 30 seconds for a total of one minute or cylinder. As you can see from the pictures there is a ring at the top of each cylinder. I realize now this was caused by the lip at the top of the cylinder. Should I do additional honing, this time setting the hone just below the lip or should I leave well enough alone. My goal was to remove the glaze and get a bit of the cross hatch back.

Second question. There is quite a bit of carbon build up and grime and I'm wondering the best way to effectively clean up so I can begin installing new parts. The first videos I watched seemed fairly casual and routine. Subsequent videos showing engines back from the machine shop and make it look like I'll need a surgical suite to clean properly.

I appreciate the help and feedback.
Thanks. Paul

Hey everybody. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong but all of my replies to your individual responses seem to be getting mixed up. I'm sure it's "user error" but it's been happening since the format changed. I'm hitting the "post reply" button immediately after your individual comments then posting but they seem to end up mixed up. I appreciate and try to respond to everyone. Thanks Paul