Questions about what is considered Non CDL transport

[john in la]

I thought that you only needed a CDL if you are drove a Truck with Air Brakes

To drive a truck with Air Brakes you need a CDL with air brake endorsement
To drive a truck without Air Brakes you need a CDL without an air brake endorsement.
CDL is determined by GVW of the truck and or trailer.

 

[Welding man]

I'll really throw one at you. We have an Amish guy in our area that is in the tractor and farm equipment repair business. He comes to your place and does the work, He doesn't have a drivers license. He pulls a 24 ft box trailer with all his tools air compressor etc with a John Deere tractor. He is well over the 10,000 # threshold for a DOT number. He is in business and making money. Is he legal?

 

[Destroked 450]

It is my interpretation of the farm exemption that a farm vehicle can not be used for other business activities.
In other words the farm truck can be used to haul a tractor to the dealer for service because the tractor is used on the farm.
But a farm truck can not be used to haul a tractor to the job site of a different business.
Hauling a tractor to a job site of a different business in no way helps the farm. It is strictly helping the other business.

With a farm exemption you are not even allowed to haul a tractor owned by your neighbor to your neighbors job site as a favor because him truck is broken down. It didn’t help your farm in anyway so the farm exemption doesn’t apply.

I understand your interpretation but using that to the full extent of the law any farmer or his wife could be given a ticket for driving their farm tagged vehicle to visit family members (aka family Christmas), to the hair dresser or taking their kids to a local ball game

As I said this is may only be in Ky but a number of farmers operate side businesses such as custom hay baling, custom brush hogging or some type of construction work
Ky DOT interpretation is the equipment being used on that job is the revenue source while the farm tagged vehicle is not generating revenue hauling that equipment to or from said job site, if the truck is not generating revenue it is not being used as a commercial vehicle and thus is not subject to farm tag restrictions
There are different Ky farm tags depending on weight class, with the lightest class I can drive that vehicle anywhere an operate it the same as a vehicle with personal tags, the heavier classes require door signs, a physical card, log book if traveling more than 125 miles from home base, a permit for traveling to or through another state and you must pull in to any open weigh stations along that travel route

 

[john in la]

I understand your interpretation but using that to the full extent of the law any farmer or his wife could be given a ticket for driving their farm tagged vehicle to visit family members (aka family Christmas), to the hair dresser or taking their kids to a local ball game

As I said this is may only be in Ky but a number of farmers operate side businesses such as custom hay baling, custom brush hogging or some type of construction work
Ky DOT interpretation is the equipment being used on that job is the revenue source while the farm tagged vehicle is not generating revenue hauling that equipment to or from said job site, if the truck is not generating revenue it is not being used as a commercial vehicle and thus is not subject to farm tag restrictions
There are different Ky farm tags depending on weight class, with the lightest class I can drive that vehicle anywhere an operate it the same as a vehicle with personal tags, the heavier classes require door signs, a physical card, log book if traveling more than 125 miles from home base, a permit for traveling to or through another state and you must pull in to any open weigh stations along that travel route

You are starting to go down a side road a little.
Going to the hair dresser visiting family or stopping at the store to buy groceries is NOT a business.
Louisiana got into it with these guys that had 2 horses putting farm tags on pickups and then using the pickup as a back and forth vehicle to off farm job. So the added a line to the law to say the truck must be used for 50 percent use on the farm.

Federal law use to be a farm truck could go anywhere no matter size.
Then the rule was changed to 26,000 and above stays in the state and 26,000 and less can go anywhere.
And it is 150 land miles from the farm.

I will give you that states have a lot of lee way when it comes to in state farm tags.
But a state is not allowed by federal law to exempt CDL drivers from doing business without a CDL just because they are in a farm tag truck.
Besides the original poster did not even mention he had farm tags.

If you follow the link you will see the exemption only applies to and from the farm AND not being used in the operation of a for hire motor carrier;
A bobcat business getting a farmer to haul the bobcat for him makes the farmer a for hire carrier.

https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/sites/fmcsa.dot.gov/files/docs/regulations/hours-service/elds/396526/agricultural-reference-guide_0.pdf

And I will edit to add...
Your state could very well be exempting the truck from getting a commercial tag and allowing you to haul the bobcat to the job site with farm truck tags.
But that exemption does not supersede the CDL laws.

 

[caterpillar guy]

First off welding man it is being pulled by the tractor that sets a whole different light on things. the next is he is Amish and that sets another thing into it. Now since he is pulling it with a tractor most would think it is going to fix his equipment unless they were to spend time following him around nobody would be the wiser,nor care. Besides since it is pulled with the tractor and he's working out of it as a service unit It could be up to the cop at the moment or possibly the court to decide if it went that far. Just my opinion and worth just what you paid for it.

 

[DRussell]

I'll really throw one at you. We have an Amish guy in our area that is in the tractor and farm equipment repair business. He comes to your place and does the work, He doesn't have a drivers license. He pulls a 24 ft box trailer with all his tools air compressor etc with a John Deere tractor. He is well over the 10,000 # threshold for a DOT number. He is in business and making money. Is he legal?

Pulling it with a tractor no one is going to touch him.

 

[showcrop]

Pulling it with a tractor no one is going to touch him.

Maybe not in your town but I hope that not too many guys take your advice.

 

[farmersamm]

Let my CDL expire around 2004ish IIRC. Needed it again in 2011. Had to rent a truck to take the test. Not really a big deal......I've carried a commercial license since I was 18( back in the day used to call them chauffeurs licenses).

Lady at the DMV was very nice. Told me that I had just beat the deadline for mandatory truck driving school. In this state you now need to complete a course, regardless of how long you've been driving in order to renew an expired CDL A.

Interesting little factoid. When I did the driving test, the guy told me that the failure rate was abysmal. So.........it seems that the truck driving schools suck. Back in the day, we learned while working. Experienced guy in the passenger seat. I started on the road after spending quite a long time in the yard, shoving trailers in the dock. If you can't back.......you can't drive.

I've carried a CDL A for most of my life. Used to work at it, now I occasionally need to take the Class 8 on the road. I'm not for hire, but I cross state lines hauling hay for my use.

This also covers my flatbed gooseneck trailer, and 1 ton. Which is in excess of 26,000 GVWR combined. All of these vehicles travel in excess of 150mi from the farm, and occasionally go across state lines.

Everything, including the 1/2 ton pickup truck is farm plated............not because it's cheaper..........because it allows me a minimal exemption from hazmat rules for certain things in small amounts. And, if I desire..........I don't have to wear seatbelts within the allowed mileage off the farm. This can be a tricky argument with the cop on the roadside, but they generally are cool with it. Doesn't matter anyhow.......started wearing belts after I "beat" the damn cancer.......don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

 

[RCP]

Is anyone familiar with "recreational" trailer registration in Pa? I have been told by unofficial sources that if the trailer has recreational registration that a CDL is not required.  I am not sure how this would work when traveling out of state. 

I did some more looking on the Pa DOT website and it appears that a lot of us are breaking the rules, according to the page I found anyone operating a vehicle with a combined GCVW over 26000 are supposed to have a class A cdl. There appear to be some exemptions for fire equipment and limited farm use, but no exemption for hauling toys or campers.

 

[Destroked 450]

Federal law use to be a farm truck could go anywhere no matter size.

Then the rule was changed to 26,000 and above stays in the state and 26,000 and less can go anywhere.
And it is 150 land miles from the farm.

How one interrupts the regulations often creates the confusion and arguments posted on this and other sites I visit when CDL’s are mentioned
Many read the above rule as a farm raged truck over 26,000 can not leave the state or travel beyond 150 miles from its home base
This is not true, it can cross state lines and can travel beyond 150 miles, BUT the person operating said truck beyond those limits MUST have a CDL, and the truck must have the proper permits to travel in those states
I live 17 miles from the Indiana state line and there are a number of agribusiness in that state I do business with
As I said before I have a CDL, I can haul my skid steer to the dealer there my over 26000 farm raged truck, my brother who does not have a CDL can not

We have a lot of horse people here and the state have the same issues with non farmers abusing the farm tag exemption, it came to a point were any farm raged truck pulling a horse trailer or race car trailer would get stopped and questioned. Often a officer would show up at the address on the operators license to see if they did have a operational farm, if not the tags were removed and an additional citation was issued

Yes Ky does allow farmers to transport equipment to and from a non farm job site with a farm tagged truck, providing there are no pickup or delivery charges added to the bill for the work done. The interruption they gave us was the equipment generated the revenue and the truck was just a means of transporting that equipment
Since the truck itself did not generate revenue it’s not being used as a commercial vehicle and thus not in violation of the farm exemption

In the OP’s original statement it can be read as
I have some remote hunting or vacation property, I’ve purchased a 10,000 skid steer to clean up, cut trails and clear food plots, I have also purchased a truck and trailer to haul said skid steer to and from that property
Since since the truck, trailer and skid steer are not to be used to generate revenue nor used to help generate revenue in another way it is not commercial and thus falls outside the commercial vehicle regulations
However his state may have stricter regulations pertaining to such vehicles non commercial vehicles
But he stated he may like to make money with the skid steer which in turn makes it all commercial to which all state and federal commercial vehicle regulations apply

 

[showcrop]

Is anyone familiar with "recreational" trailer registration in Pa? I have been told by unofficial sources that if the trailer has recreational registration that a CDL is not required.  I am not sure how this would work when traveling out of state. 

View attachment 99939I did some more looking on the Pa DOT website and it appears that a lot of us are breaking the rules, according to the page I found anyone operating a vehicle with a combined GCVW over 26000 are supposed to have a class A cdl. There appear to be some exemptions for fire equipment and limited farm use, but no exemption for hauling toys or campers.
View attachment 99940

Looks like they told you that you need an "A"

 

[RCP]

Looks like they told you that you need an "A"

I agree, in my case I am going to continue to do what I have done for the last 54 years and if I get pulled over plead ignorance.

 

[E.B. Haymakin']

I'll really throw one at you. We have an Amish guy in our area that is in the tractor and farm equipment repair business. He comes to your place and does the work, He doesn't have a drivers license. He pulls a 24 ft box trailer with all his tools air compressor etc with a John Deere tractor. He is well over the 10,000 # threshold for a DOT number. He is in business and making money. Is he legal?

If he worked out of a horse and buggy would you brand the ICC & DOT #'s on the horses backside?They probably already have to have tags on the carriage, probably....

 

[G1000VISTA]

Friend of mine has a Farm tagged KW T300 with a trailer. Has a business windrowing turkey houses. Uses the tractor and trailer to haul the kubota tractor and windrower from farm to farm. Local Dot cop pulled him over , read him the riot act. wanted him to admit to custom hauling which he wasn't. Cop wrote him a ticket and the went to court. Judge heard both sides , threw up his hands and said. Since when can't a farmer make money and threw the case out of court. The truck is only used to transport the equipment and doesn't make any money.

 

[Scott 730]

What is the furtherance of commerce? Vehicles are operating under the furtherance of commerce when money earned is declared as income from a business for tax purposes, costs for the underlying activities are deducted as a business expense for tax purposes, products and/or money is accepted for advertising a sponsor, or the transport vehicle is being used in the furtherance of a commercial operation.

 

[john in la]

How one interrupts the regulations often creates the confusion and arguments posted on this and other sites I visit when CDL’s are mentioned
Many read the above rule as a farm raged truck over 26,000 can not leave the state or travel beyond 150 miles from its home base
This is not true, it can cross state lines and can travel beyond 150 miles, BUT the person operating said truck beyond those limits MUST have a CDL, and the truck must have the proper permits to travel in those states
I live 17 miles from the Indiana state line and there are a number of agribusiness in that state I do business with
As I said before I have a CDL, I can haul my skid steer to the dealer there my over 26000 farm raged truck, my brother who does not have a CDL can not

We have a lot of horse people here and the state have the same issues with non farmers abusing the farm tag exemption, it came to a point were any farm raged truck pulling a horse trailer or race car trailer would get stopped and questioned. Often a officer would show up at the address on the operators license to see if they did have a operational farm, if not the tags were removed and an additional citation was issued

Yes Ky does allow farmers to transport equipment to and from a non farm job site with a farm tagged truck, providing there are no pickup or delivery charges added to the bill for the work done. The interruption they gave us was the equipment generated the revenue and the truck was just a means of transporting that equipment
Since the truck itself did not generate revenue it’s not being used as a commercial vehicle and thus not in violation of the farm exemption

In the OP’s original statement it can be read as
I have some remote hunting or vacation property, I’ve purchased a 10,000 skid steer to clean up, cut trails and clear food plots, I have also purchased a truck and trailer to haul said skid steer to and from that property
Since since the truck, trailer and skid steer are not to be used to generate revenue nor used to help generate revenue in another way it is not commercial and thus falls outside the commercial vehicle regulations
However his state may have stricter regulations pertaining to such vehicles non commercial vehicles
But he stated he may like to make money with the skid steer which in turn makes it all commercial to which all state and federal commercial vehicle regulations apply

Nice discussion.
I hope you don’t feel we are arguing.

The problem I’m having with this is……
Let’s say you are a farmer
I am not a farmer.
We both open a commercial business that needs a piece of heavy equipment.

You as a farmer have farm tags
This affords you special tax advantages
A cheaper farm tag
No ELD
No CDL
Cheaper insurance
And so on

That seems to me an unfair business advantage afforded to you over me by allowing you to haul your equipment on a truck with farm tags.

 

[john in la]

Is anyone familiar with "recreational" trailer registration in Pa? I have been told by unofficial sources that if the trailer has recreational registration that a CDL is not required.  I am not sure how this would work when traveling out of state. 

View attachment 99939I did some more looking on the Pa DOT website and it appears that a lot of us are breaking the rules, according to the page I found anyone operating a vehicle with a combined GCVW over 26000 are supposed to have a class A cdl. There appear to be some exemptions for fire equipment and limited farm use, but no exemption for hauling toys or campers.
View attachment 99940

It’s called a Noncommercial Class A or Class B license.
About 15 states require some form of a special license to drive recreational vehicles.
Other states should follow the rules of your home state not the state you are in.
In other words I don’t need a Noncommercial Class A license to drive in your state but you need a Noncommercial Class A to drive in any state.

 

[showcrop]

I agree, in my case I am going to continue to do what I have done for the last 54 years and if I get pulled over plead ignorance.

Yes, you could look at it that way. No one ever plans to be in a wreck, but it keeps happening. How about if the DOT officer walks up to your window and you have grandma's car under the front of your truck? I would think about downsizing. The judge would probably tell you that you should have.

 

[RCP]

Yes, you could look at it that way. No one ever plans to be in a wreck, but it keeps happening. How about if the DOT officer walks up to your window and you have grandma's car under the front of your truck? I would think about downsizing. The judge would probably tell you that you should have.

My choice my consequences, having a CDL would not make me a better driver or help me avoid an accident.

 

[RCP]

It’s called a Noncommercial Class A or Class B license.
About 15 states require some form of a special license to drive recreational vehicles.
Other states should follow the rules of your home state not the state you are in.
In other words I don’t need a Noncommercial Class A license to drive in your state but you need a Noncommercial Class A to drive in any state.

John that is interesting, I looked into getting a Class A license, and in Pa you have to go to driving school, the cheapest I could find was $800 and the normal price was closer to $4,000.