Service line drop & power pole replacement

[will-max dairy]

Here you can tell the power company you don't want a light on the pole. I had them take it down when they replaced my pole. I don't care to pay the electricity bill on it. No need for a yard light here. I figure if someone's out there trying to steal stuff..........let them trip over something, and break a leg. I'm not gonna give them a courtesy light

x2 or is it x3 on putting the kibash to the light on the utility pole...

Our neighbor has an old technology light (I think Mercury Vapor) on the pole in front of their house (which used to be the main house for the farm we're currently on)... The bulb has gotten old and it "cycles" going on and off at random times all night long. She continues to pay a bill for it, and puts up with the half-arsed light; because it's her problem now. she would have to pay someone to come out with a bucket truck to even change the bulb.

We recently acquired a New Holland 155 Hay/Grain elevator... I'm not sure if I can park it out on the lawn and raise it high enough to just unscrew the bulb for her....

Maybe next spring... right now, it's safely in the hay loft, being protected from lake effect snow and gale-force winds.

 

[moresmoke]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but if the first disconnect is not directly grounded then the main panel at the end of the service line to the house should be grounded to ground rods and the same for the line to the garage panel?

The first disconnect should be grounded and the ground and neutral should be bonded there. Everything downstream from there should have 4 wire service with neutral and ground never touching again.

In my part of the world, every panel has a grounding wire and ground rods/plates. Otherwise a break in the ground wire would leave the potential for ungrounded voltage if an appliance were to fault to ground.

Now right and functional are 2 different things. I have the state inspection certificate from 1977 for this place. That said some of the stuff that was done was sketchy enough I’m surprised there was never a fire here. Ive been slowly upgrading things, some of it is not up to current code, but its a heck of a lot better than what I started with.

 

[will-max dairy]

The first disconnect should be grounded and the ground and neutral should be bonded there. Everything downstream from there should have 4 wire service with neutral and ground never touching again.

In my part of the world, every panel has a grounding wire and ground rods/plates. Otherwise a break in the ground wire would leave the potential for ungrounded voltage if an appliance were to fault to ground.

Now right and functional are 2 different things. I have the state inspection certificate from 1977 for this place. That said some of the stuff that was done was sketchy enough I’m surprised there was never a fire here. Ive been slowly upgrading things, some of it is not up to current code, but its a heck of a lot better than what I started with.

My question here is... first disconnect for the entire "campus" of buildings for a farm? Or the first disconnect means a "main panel" within a building?

Is it a first disconnect "per meter" thing?... "per building" thing?

I honestly don't know, and first principles-type thinking about it doesn't really help me.

 

[paul]

You know.......I NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT. I bought K'kins a telescope a few years back, and she still likes to take it out once in a while. It WOULD be a PITA with a yard light!!

We have always had our own switchable yard light. Never went for the rea ‘free’ just pay monthly auto on light. We also figure no point lighting the place up for the thieves.

Original yard light had a magnetic switch, the light switch in the house, shop, and barn were momentary. Spring loaded, so it would turn power back off when you let go. The magnet pulled the power on and off by the light. I wonder if you could even get those switches any more? Now I just have 2 way switch, in the house and on the pole itself.

Paul

 

[paul]

My question here is... first disconnect for the entire "campus" of buildings for a farm? Or the first disconnect means a "main panel" within a building?

Is it a first disconnect "per meter" thing?... "per building" thing?

I honestly don't know, and first principles-type thinking about it doesn't really help me.

Used to be you had a disconnect at the meter pole, and wires ran out from there to the various buildings. Each building had its main panel.

Now with changes in code and how grounding is handled the past 20 years, it is difficult for us non electricians to accurately talk about it any more. Everything is a sub panel now after the first box. But our farms are grandfathered in with a main panel at each building still….

So we call it, um, ah, well…..

Paul

 

[John T]

The first disconnect should be grounded and the ground and neutral should be bonded there. Everything downstream from there should have 4 wire service with neutral and ground never touching again.

In my part of the world, every panel has a grounding wire and ground rods/plates. Otherwise a break in the ground wire would leave the potential for ungrounded voltage if an appliance were to fault to ground.

Now right and functional are 2 different things. I have the state inspection certificate from 1977 for this place. That said some of the stuff that was done was sketchy enough I’m surprised there was never a fire here. Ive been slowly upgrading things, some of it is not up to current code, but its a heck of a lot better than what I started with.

I totally agree X2 and Ditto
To put it in my terminology,,, at the first means of disconnect the neutral ground bond is established and at that bond an equipment grounding conductor is attached which connects to the grounding electrode system consisting of all readily available grounding electrodes such as driven rods or conductive buried utility pipes or ground plates or structural steel etc etc. of course the metallic frames of swirches or disconnects or panel tubs are connected to the ground buss

There shall be only one n g bond so no more bonds downstream or sub panels etc That means any sub panels must have separate insulated isolated from each other neutral and ground busses again with the metal case frames connected to the ground buss

Ps if an appliance had a hot wire shirt to its case frame and it was bonded to the EGC, the EGC would provide a fault current return path to trip the brewker

Note that can happen even if the n g bond wasn’t attached to any earth ground at all !!!!! The EGC can work and the breaker trip with or without any ground rods, they serve a purpose however and code required for good reason

We’re tracking together on this one yayyy for us nice chatting with you take care best wishes

Ps I mentioned at the ng bond is where the EGC is attached and where I often specified it. However it can be at different locations !!!!

John T

 

[John T]

My question here is... first disconnect for the entire "campus" of buildings for a farm? Or the first disconnect means a "main panel" within a building?

Is it a first disconnect "per meter" thing?... "per building" thing?

I honestly don't know, and first principles-type thinking about it doesn't really help me.

Good question will I can’t answer it only can say you have to consult the darn nec to find out the precise definition of first means of disconnect. My study of the code makes me believe it’s well defined in the code itself somewhere but I’m too tired to take the time lol

Ps I have studied and used legal statutes which are complicated however I found the nec to be even harder to follow lol They can’t have a paragraph which doesn’t lead you back to 3 or 4 more

Best wishes

John T

 

[moresmoke]

My question here is... first disconnect for the entire "campus" of buildings for a farm? Or the first disconnect means a "main panel" within a building?

Is it a first disconnect "per meter" thing?... "per building" thing?

I honestly don't know, and first principles-type thinking about it doesn't really help me.

I believe NEC reads at “first service equipment”. Which is the first device downstream of the meter. To use my place as an example, I have a transfer switch as part of the meter can. The neutral and ground are bonded there and 4 wire feeder runs to every panel from there. I have services that run in 4 different directions from the transfer switch with up to 3 sub panels chained on one service.

Are there places that were wired differently and acceptable at the time? Absolutely. But as time marches on and standards change, if you upgrade any part of the system you are supposed to bring the entire system up to current code.

Most likely the only time it would be a problem is if you want to sell and an inspector flags electrical issues. Although I could see an insurance company wanting to inspect and determine cost of coverage based on what they find. Just like most won’t insure a house with a fuse panel any more.

 

[bc]

Used to be you had a disconnect at the meter pole, and wires ran out from there to the various buildings. Each building had its main panel.

Now with changes in code and how grounding is handled the past 20 years, it is difficult for us non electricians to accurately talk about it any more. Everything is a sub panel now after the first box. But our farms are grandfathered in with a main panel at each building still….

So we call it, um, ah, well…..

Paul

My question here is... first disconnect for the entire "campus" of buildings for a farm? Or the first disconnect means a "main panel" within a building?

Is it a first disconnect "per meter" thing?... "per building" thing?

I honestly don't know, and first principles-type thinking about it doesn't really help me.

That gets down to the question for my situation which is a campus setup with two 240v triplex service lines coming from the meter pole with disconnect that isn't grounded. This place has always been wired with triplex from the meter and from the transformer pole. The neutral on the triplex is a bare wire.

One triplex service line goes to the house that has always had ground rods and the other to a middle of the yard pole which was in an earlier pic. From that pole was simplex 120v lines going to the garage, the barn, and to the hog barn that I tore down. After tearing down the hog barn I used that simplex line to go to the garage making a 240v setup there to run the welder.

Presently the yard pole and any building after is not grounded to a ground rod. When the yard pole broke off at the base a couple years ago there was a ground wire coming down the pole and stuck in the ground but not attached to a rod. I do not know if that ground wire was there for lightning or if it is attached to the brackets for the simplex wires. Will look tomorrow.

This place, like most others around, were first wired around the 1940's probably with everything inside using knob and tube. No NEC requirements by the state or county. The county added zoning a number of years but don't believe they adopted any building codes.

Getting to the ultimate question, if the disconnect by the meter is bonded, neutral and ground, then every line going out to the campus would have to be quadruplex. Nobody around here I know of has quadruplex going around.

Wiring a farm campus with quadruplex can get expensive. I'll have to see what I have at the yard pole. Will also get a pic of the old weatherhead and service entrance cable. It was 2 conductor with aluminum neutral that was sheathed all around the conductors. Don't know the name of it.

 

[olddavid]

Our neighbor has an old technology light (I think Mercury Vapor) on the pole in front of their house (which used to be the main house for the farm we're currently on)... The bulb has gotten old and it "cycles" going on and off at random times all night long. She continues to pay a bill for it, and puts up with the half-arsed light; because it's her problem now. she would have to pay someone to come out with a bucket truck to even change the bulb.

It may not be the bulb but the day/night sensor. I've seen them fail that way at work before I retired. Since it's a pain to get to them I would change both.

 

[Geo-TH,In]

Good question will I can’t answer it only can say you have to consult the darn nec to find out the precise definition of first means of disconnect. My study of the code makes me believe it’s well defined in the code itself somewhere but I’m too tired to take the time lol

Ps I have studied and used legal statutes which are complicated however I found the nec to be even harder to follow lol They can’t have a paragraph which doesn’t lead you back to 3 or 4 more

Best wishes

John T

John
I haven't been following you. Why are you still in Tx?

 

[bc]

x2 or is it x3 on putting the kibash to the light on the utility pole...

Our neighbor has an old technology light (I think Mercury Vapor) on the pole in front of their house (which used to be the main house for the farm we're currently on)... The bulb has gotten old and it "cycles" going on and off at random times all night long. She continues to pay a bill for it, and puts up with the half-arsed light; because it's her problem now. she would have to pay someone to come out with a bucket truck to even change the bulb.

We recently acquired a New Holland 155 Hay/Grain elevator... I'm not sure if I can park it out on the lawn and raise it high enough to just unscrew the bulb for her....

Maybe next spring... right now, it's safely in the hay loft, being protected from lake effect snow and gale-force winds.

I've been figuring on taking the extension ladder and chaining it solid to the loader bucket to trim a few trees and do that overhead work on poles. Just have to be careful around power lines. With the bucket and ladder off the ground the rubber tires would help avoid any line to ground connection. Right now I have a 3 point bale spear chained to the bucket for moving 1500# bales.

For a new light it would be a new led light. Run a couple 1" conduits down the pole and first add a outdoor switch and then add the dawn to dusk switch down low next to the switch. Get both options that I control. Switch it off for star gazing which we do quite often.

If I did that, would I need separate down and up conduits or could they be together in one larger conduit?

 

[John T]

Why would anyone not have the meter connected to the house?
I have 6 rentals and 2 houses. All meters are connected to the house.
I don't know anyone who has a meter in a remote area except for mobile homes.
In 1985 I built a total electric home. The power company trenched a 200 amp service to the house where the meter was connected.
It didn't cost me anything.

I couldn’t count how many remote meters I’ve seen allll sorts of places but being thats my thing I probably took more notice than others lol

John T

 

[John T]

John
I haven't been following you. Why are you still in Tx?

Howdy neighbor, indeed our plan as in the past was go to Texas first to see daughter then Florida for most of winter

However on Dec 2 I developed all a sudden a bad GI bleed I had 8 units of blood it was running out the back faster then pumped in my arm grrrr. So they got it stopped but I was in the hospital 3 weeks and had blood clots and bladder infections grrr after I got out I have therapy twice a week, on blood thinners but I’m still weak, have hot flashes snd dizzy light headed walk with a cane Grrr so we stayed here with all the doctors and near family but hope to be able yo drive home mid March I’m really really glad I have FEP Blue supplement insurance which I was able to get having retired from DOD

Ps. No idea if this had enything to do with my gi bleed ??? I never had that bleed before but just before it happened I had back pain snd started taking ibuprofen which I never used before and there comes the bleed ???????

Thanks for asking good neighbor there’s the answer. I hope you’re doing fine George

John T. Stuck in Lakeway Texas

 

[will-max dairy]

It may not be the bulb but the day/night sensor. I've seen them fail that way at work before I retired. Since it's a pain to get to them I would change both.

or remove both... It's un-needed.

 

[will-max dairy]

I've been figuring on taking the extension ladder and chaining it solid to the loader bucket to trim a few trees and do that overhead work on poles. Just have to be careful around power lines. With the bucket and ladder off the ground the rubber tires would help avoid any line to ground connection. Right now I have a 3 point bale spear chained to the bucket for moving 1500# bales.

For a new light it would be a new led light. Run a couple 1" conduits down the pole and first add a outdoor switch and then add the dawn to dusk switch down low next to the switch. Get both options that I control. Switch it off for star gazing which we do quite often.

If I did that, would I need separate down and up conduits or could they be together in one larger conduit?

I have no clue about what can and cannot be in the same conduit.

 

[will-max dairy]

That gets down to the question for my situation which is a campus setup with two 240v triplex service lines coming from the meter pole with disconnect that isn't grounded. This place has always been wired with triplex from the meter and from the transformer pole. The neutral on the triplex is a bare wire.

One triplex service line goes to the house that has always had ground rods and the other to a middle of the yard pole which was in an earlier pic. From that pole was simplex 120v lines going to the garage, the barn, and to the hog barn that I tore down. After tearing down the hog barn I used that simplex line to go to the garage making a 240v setup there to run the welder.

Presently the yard pole and any building after is not grounded to a ground rod. When the yard pole broke off at the base a couple years ago there was a ground wire coming down the pole and stuck in the ground but not attached to a rod. I do not know if that ground wire was there for lightning or if it is attached to the brackets for the simplex wires. Will look tomorrow.

This place, like most others around, were first wired around the 1940's probably with everything inside using knob and tube. No NEC requirements by the state or county. The county added zoning a number of years but don't believe they adopted any building codes.

Getting to the ultimate question, if the disconnect by the meter is bonded, neutral and ground, then every line going out to the campus would have to be quadruplex. Nobody around here I know of has quadruplex going around.

Wiring a farm campus with quadruplex can get expensive. I'll have to see what I have at the yard pole. Will also get a pic of the old weatherhead and service entrance cable. It was 2 conductor with aluminum neutral that was sheathed all around the conductors. Don't know the name of it.

Color me skeptical; but I would love to talk to electricians that work at college campuses and such, to see if they are running quadriplex between every building.

 

[John T]

Color me skeptical; but I would love to talk to electricians that work at college campuses and such, to see if they are running quadriplex between every building.

Hey there Will,,, just an fyi for anyone who may not be so sparky

Remember when talking all this four wire stuff

That’s only the 120 240 type of secondary. Not running a bunch of 120 to 480 4 wire over an entire campus. At the huge facility’s I designed we ran hv 12470 Y 7200 aerial or hv buried, to diffetent buildings, set transformers , then 120 or 240 or 480 to each building.

I never ran lv quad cable to diffetent buildings each had their own x former aerial or pad mount. Now at some farms one might see lv around to a few buildings
Ps our hv primary aerial or buried may have been single phase or 3 phase y or delta with 3 or 4 hv conductors.

Hope this makes sense lol no warranty

John T

 

[will-max dairy]

Hey there Will,,, just an fyi for anyone who may not be so sparky

Remember when talking all this four wire stuff

That’s only the 120 240 type of secondary. Not running a bunch of 120 to 480 4 wire over an entire campus. At the huge facility’s I designed we ran hv 12470 Y 7200 aerial or hv buried, to diffetent buildings, set transformers , then 120 or 240 or 480 to each building.

I never ran lv quad cable to diffetent buildings each had their own x former aerial or pad mount. Now at some farms one might see lv around to a few buildings

Hope this makes sense lol no warranty

John T

definitely makes sense.

I may have called a farm a "campus"... but I'm sure that you've dealt with a CAMPUS... lol

and my disclaimer is... I used the word "campus"...to try to get the point across, but I have no idea what the official terminology in NEC is for a bunch of buildings under the same lv regime.

 

[John T]

definitely makes sense.

I may have called a farm a "campus"... but I'm sure that you've dealt with a CAMPUS... lol

and my disclaimer is... I used the word "campus"...to try to get the point across, but I have no idea what the official terminology in NEC is for a bunch of buildings under the same lv regime.

I don’t know what it’s called but knowing the nec you have to go back n forth and all over to figure it out grrr The nec handbook with pictures was the way to go but would still drive one to drink.

JT