Since I'm Doing Idiot Squares Anyway

[will-max dairy]

Our NH276 baler went down a couple of weeks ago, with just a little bit of 2nd cut and bedding to go.

Fortunately, a good friend of ours was still sitting on a NH269 in a shed. We had baled with his baler way back 15 years ago, before getting our own equipment. It was good fortune that his baler, after sitting shedded for three years, made good bales with just a little bit of grease and adjustment. So now we're about done for the year.

But... this has me thinking about our future of idiot square making.

The 269 didn't have a thrower. I had an old 36" chute that came with our 276. (We have since put a model 58 thrower on it)

We mounted the chute on the 269 and quickly built an extender out of 2x6 lumber and plywood (screwed n glued... works nice). With the extender, the chute reaches our kicker wagons, so we can bale "old school" with a rider on the wagon pulling bales and stacking with a hay hook.

We also have two flatbed wagons available to us... which... we can now use with the chute. So... chute baling means being able to load four wagons.

I forgot how nice and square bales are when they aren't mangled by a thrower. And, we can make nice, long, bales that lock in nicely in the hay loft.

And... when I'm the rider/stacker... I can do things like... I noticed that my twine splice knot didn't pull through... I called to our son-in-law (the driver) to stop for a second... I restrung the baler needle... but not before I cut three long pieces of twine... I told him to start baling again... I walked along.... and then he clutched and paused three times as the next three bales got on the chute; where I did "the haybuyer's tie" on them to fix the bales. With a thrower... all three of those bales end up in the wagon... you have to climb up there... dig all the loose hay out... throw it off... jump down... straighten it out on the ground.... then circle the whole tractor/baler/wagon shebang around to clean it up...

Also, unloading a stacked wagon is easier than trying to unjumble the bales randomly kicked in by the thrower.

And... we have probably spent 5 to 10 hours of mechanical time on the thrower over the past couple of summers... bearings... welding cracks in 50 year old thrower frames...

And... we are using wooden kicker racks; which, after about six years of baling... are starting to crack and rack and sway... You pay for all of the lumber to make those wooden kicker racks... only to burn it for firewood about 6 - 10 years hence... or... you spend a few grand on steel, welding and paint to make steel racks that last...

I probably won't get an answer here. But I just think it's worth thinking about... there is probably a certain number of small squares per year that "may" be more efficiently done with flatbed wagons, a chute and a rider than with throwers and kicker racks

 

[will-max dairy]

PS... we are going to continue to use the thrower on our 276; once we get it back in shape... That's part of the "dance with the girl you brought" philosophy. But, if we want to use the 269 as a backup, or to do the hay that we sell (because of the nice bale shape)... we can now make use of the two flatbeds as additional wagons without investing money and repairs in another thrower... or investing more money in the flatbeds to convert them to kicker racks...

We plan on making long term fixes to the 276 over the winter (rebuilding the plunger... pulling the pickup head and replacing bearings and such). These fixes will probably outlast the thrower and the wooden kicker racks. There may be a time, say, five years from now... where we abandon that old 58 thrower and convert the two kicker racks back to flatbeds, and just bale everything with chutes and riders.

 

[DanielW]

One of those common cases where 'labour saving' from a manpower perspective isn't necessarily synonymous with 'labour saving' from an effort perspective, and neither are necessarily synonymous with 'time saving'. I'd think if you have the extra person and wages aren't a concern, baling directly onto the wagon without a kicker would almost certainly be easier for the tractor operator and also save time. All depends on the operation and balancing wages vs. manpower vs. time. Kickers were all the rage around here for decades. Now you seldom see any new small square balers with them: they're either using Tubeline-style accumulators or bale barons.

I like building loads on wagons by hand for storage purposes: There's no shortage of running gears around here available for $200. Because I have a sawmill and woodlot, I can then build a bale wagon for peanuts. Stack them neatly on the wagon, back them in the pole barn, and leave them on the wagon (I might throw some blocks under the axles if they're sitting over winter). It allows me to move them whenever/however I want, and I only have to handle the bales once.

 

[will-max dairy]

One of those common cases where 'labour saving' from a manpower perspective isn't necessarily synonymous with 'labour saving' from an effort perspective, and neither are necessarily synonymous with 'time saving'. I'd think if you have the extra person and wages aren't a concern, baling directly onto the wagon without a kicker would almost certainly be easier for the tractor operator and also save time. All depends on the operation and balancing wages vs. manpower vs. time. Kickers were all the rage around here for decades. Now you seldom see any new small square balers with them: they're either using Tubeline-style accumulators or bale barons.

I like building loads on wagons by hand for storage purposes: There's no shortage of running gears around here available for $200. Because I have a sawmill and woodlot, I can then build a bale wagon for peanuts. Stack them neatly on the wagon, back them in the pole barn, and leave them on the wagon (I might throw some blocks under the axles if they're sitting over winter). It allows me to move them whenever/however I want, and I only have to handle the bales once.

Yeah... it's a series of treadmills... there is a certain amount of hay where, nowadays, people using small squares should just give in to the round bale (or large square bale) gods. Then... there is a higher amount, where the people using round balers should just give in to the whopper chopper/bunk silo gods.

But... maybe there is a point within the small square paradigm where... you either stick with the thrower to get big enough to use a round baler... or you ditch the thrower and stay limited to a small, sustainable, number of idiot squares... and buy a few cheap round bales if you're short of hay. Cuz round bales are cheap now. It's almost like people are making them for the fun of it...

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

These machines here will make you feel at least 30% smarter when you are done idiot cubing.

Mike

 

[olgentdc]

These machines here will make you feel at least 30% smarter when you are done idiot cubing.


View attachment 87327

Mike

I have a model 1033 looking for a home since i retired .

 

[will-max dairy]

These machines here will make you feel at least 30% smarter when you are done idiot cubing.


View attachment 87327

Mike

Ya know...

If our barn was setup differently...our storage is in an old-school bank barn loft... but... If I was piling in a nice, long single story shed like that green one in the background... that there bale accumulator thingy would be the cat's meow.

I have the same equivocation about round bales or big squares. To store the same amount of hay that we do now... we would need a telehandler to do the piling.... or we would need to pile outside... essentially making our hayloft a big, white elephant that we don't need anymore.

Actually... as much as I love our hayloft... it is growing into a white elephant all on its own... we can get the kit for a 120x40 metal building for less than a roof replacement for the hayloft...

 

[Absent Minded Farmer]

Ya know...

If our barn was setup differently...our storage is in an old-school bank barn loft... but... If I was piling in a nice, long single story shed like that green one in the background... that there bale accumulator thingy would be the cat's meow.

I have the same equivocation about round bales or big squares. To store the same amount of hay that we do now... we would need a telehandler to do the piling.... or we would need to pile outside... essentially making our hayloft a big, white elephant that we don't need anymore.

Actually... as much as I love our hayloft... it is growing into a white elephant all on its own... we can get the kit for a 120x40 metal building for less than a roof replacement for the hayloft...

Most all my deliveries with the Stackliner have been to bank barns. I have the 1010 with the single unload & unload onto either an elevator or by hand for small loads. One horse farm is looking into buying up some NH pipe elevator sections, so I can unload from the driveway. They'll go up the embankment & to the regular elevator that goes from the floor to the loft. Then they only need two people stacking.

Mike

 

[tom upton]

Our NH276 baler went down a couple of weeks ago, with just a little bit of 2nd cut and bedding to go.

Fortunately, a good friend of ours was still sitting on a NH269 in a shed. We had baled with his baler way back 15 years ago, before getting our own equipment. It was good fortune that his baler, after sitting shedded for three years, made good bales with just a little bit of grease and adjustment. So now we're about done for the year.

But... this has me thinking about our future of idiot square making.

The 269 didn't have a thrower. I had an old 36" chute that came with our 276. (We have since put a model 58 thrower on it)

We mounted the chute on the 269 and quickly built an extender out of 2x6 lumber and plywood (screwed n glued... works nice). With the extender, the chute reaches our kicker wagons, so we can bale "old school" with a rider on the wagon pulling bales and stacking with a hay hook.

We also have two flatbed wagons available to us... which... we can now use with the chute. So... chute baling means being able to load four wagons.

I forgot how nice and square bales are when they aren't mangled by a thrower. And, we can make nice, long, bales that lock in nicely in the hay loft.

And... when I'm the rider/stacker... I can do things like... I noticed that my twine splice knot didn't pull through... I called to our son-in-law (the driver) to stop for a second... I restrung the baler needle... but not before I cut three long pieces of twine... I told him to start baling again... I walked along.... and then he clutched and paused three times as the next three bales got on the chute; where I did "the haybuyer's tie" on them to fix the bales. With a thrower... all three of those bales end up in the wagon... you have to climb up there... dig all the loose hay out... throw it off... jump down... straighten it out on the ground.... then circle the whole tractor/baler/wagon shebang around to clean it up...

Also, unloading a stacked wagon is easier than trying to unjumble the bales randomly kicked in by the thrower.

And... we have probably spent 5 to 10 hours of mechanical time on the thrower over the past couple of summers... bearings... welding cracks in 50 year old thrower frames...

And... we are using wooden kicker racks; which, after about six years of baling... are starting to crack and rack and sway... You pay for all of the lumber to make those wooden kicker racks... only to burn it for firewood about 6 - 10 years hence... or... you spend a few grand on steel, welding and paint to make steel racks that last...

I probably won't get an answer here. But I just think it's worth thinking about... there is probably a certain number of small squares per year that "may" be more efficiently done with flatbed wagons, a chute and a rider than with throwers and kicker racks

I am with you on the thrower comments, but you need dependable help to stack on the wagon. Really you need two people on the wagon in heavy hay or at least trade off with the driver every load or so. I have been involved in making hay every year as far back as I can remember and in my opinion it is hard to beat baling onto a wagon if you have the help, lots of wagons, and a place to shove them under cover afterwards. At this moment I have 8 loads of straw and some hay still on wagons from the last couple go rounds of baling. I have used throwers in the past and great when you are by yourself , and for a few years we used a belt thrower and still stacked on a flat rack. Problem with that was operator had to be dilegent in constantly changing thrower to set bales were stacker wanted them. ( and more importantly to not knock someone off the wagon!) I was finally persuaded to lose the thrower as my help was in the lose it or me mode as she was sick of eating chaff I guess?? ( honest I never once hit her with a bale!!) The huge advantage to baling/stacking onto wagon ( as long as you have lots of wagons) is you can get lots of hay baled, and when you are done it is off the field . We usually head to field with at least 2 wagons behind baler, so when first one is loaded drop the back wagon, pull full load out of the windrow, circle around and hook the empty wagon up, grease the plunger, check the twine and you are back in business. Are you sure we shouldnt be called idiots when we bale good hay into round bales and if fortunate get less than half the price of what you get out of small squares??

 

[Loosehandle]

Our NH276 baler went down a couple of weeks ago, with just a little bit of 2nd cut and bedding to go.

Fortunately, a good friend of ours was still sitting on a NH269 in a shed. We had baled with his baler way back 15 years ago, before getting our own equipment. It was good fortune that his baler, after sitting shedded for three years, made good bales with just a little bit of grease and adjustment. So now we're about done for the year.

But... this has me thinking about our future of idiot square making.

The 269 didn't have a thrower. I had an old 36" chute that came with our 276. (We have since put a model 58 thrower on it)

We mounted the chute on the 269 and quickly built an extender out of 2x6 lumber and plywood (screwed n glued... works nice). With the extender, the chute reaches our kicker wagons, so we can bale "old school" with a rider on the wagon pulling bales and stacking with a hay hook.

We also have two flatbed wagons available to us... which... we can now use with the chute. So... chute baling means being able to load four wagons.

I forgot how nice and square bales are when they aren't mangled by a thrower. And, we can make nice, long, bales that lock in nicely in the hay loft.

And... when I'm the rider/stacker... I can do things like... I noticed that my twine splice knot didn't pull through... I called to our son-in-law (the driver) to stop for a second... I restrung the baler needle... but not before I cut three long pieces of twine... I told him to start baling again... I walked along.... and then he clutched and paused three times as the next three bales got on the chute; where I did "the haybuyer's tie" on them to fix the bales. With a thrower... all three of those bales end up in the wagon... you have to climb up there... dig all the loose hay out... throw it off... jump down... straighten it out on the ground.... then circle the whole tractor/baler/wagon shebang around to clean it up...

Also, unloading a stacked wagon is easier than trying to unjumble the bales randomly kicked in by the thrower.

And... we have probably spent 5 to 10 hours of mechanical time on the thrower over the past couple of summers... bearings... welding cracks in 50 year old thrower frames...

And... we are using wooden kicker racks; which, after about six years of baling... are starting to crack and rack and sway... You pay for all of the lumber to make those wooden kicker racks... only to burn it for firewood about 6 - 10 years hence... or... you spend a few grand on steel, welding and paint to make steel racks that last...

I probably won't get an answer here. But I just think it's worth thinking about... there is probably a certain number of small squares per year that "may" be more efficiently done with flatbed wagons, a chute and a rider than with throwers and kicker racks

My right arm is screwed up from handling sm bales alone, another thing to think about.....

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

One of those common cases where 'labour saving' from a manpower perspective isn't necessarily synonymous with 'labour saving' from an effort perspective, and neither are necessarily synonymous with 'time saving'. I'd think if you have the extra person and wages aren't a concern, baling directly onto the wagon without a kicker would almost certainly be easier for the tractor operator and also save time. All depends on the operation and balancing wages vs. manpower vs. time. Kickers were all the rage around here for decades. Now you seldom see any new small square balers with them: they're either using Tubeline-style accumulators or bale barons.

I like building loads on wagons by hand for storage purposes: There's no shortage of running gears around here available for $200. Because I have a sawmill and woodlot, I can then build a bale wagon for peanuts. Stack them neatly on the wagon, back them in the pole barn, and leave them on the wagon (I might throw some blocks under the axles if they're sitting over winter). It allows me to move them whenever/however I want, and I only have to handle the bales once.

You'd probably make more money loading those running gears up and shipping them to Western New York. Even the junkiest seized up running gear goes for $300-400 at auctions around here. Decent ones with tires that hold air bring several hundred dollars.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

Ya know...

If our barn was setup differently...our storage is in an old-school bank barn loft... but... If I was piling in a nice, long single story shed like that green one in the background... that there bale accumulator thingy would be the cat's meow.

I have the same equivocation about round bales or big squares. To store the same amount of hay that we do now... we would need a telehandler to do the piling.... or we would need to pile outside... essentially making our hayloft a big, white elephant that we don't need anymore.

Actually... as much as I love our hayloft... it is growing into a white elephant all on its own... we can get the kit for a 120x40 metal building for less than a roof replacement for the hayloft...

Yeah but then you let the hayloft fall down and people will post pictures of the neglected barn on the internet where hundreds to thousands of people will make judgmental comments about you and how you're a monster for letting that beautiful old barn go to waste.

 

[will-max dairy]

Yeah but then you let the hayloft fall down and people will post pictures of the neglected barn on the internet where hundreds to thousands of people will make judgmental comments about you and how you're a monster for letting that beautiful old barn go to waste.

They wouldn't judge me any harder than I would judge myself, my friend.

In my most cynical moments, I call the barn a "castle"... as I think about the history of the British Isles and the numerous castles that dot the landscape... and how they went through cycles of repair and disrepair... funny thing is, when it comes to roofs... a stone castle will stand just fine as a ruin after the roof rots off of it.

Post and beam haylofts? Not so much...

 

[dhermesc]

Yeah... it's a series of treadmills... there is a certain amount of hay where, nowadays, people using small squares should just give in to the round bale (or large square bale) gods. Then... there is a higher amount, where the people using round balers should just give in to the whopper chopper/bunk silo gods.

But... maybe there is a point within the small square paradigm where... you either stick with the thrower to get big enough to use a round baler... or you ditch the thrower and stay limited to a small, sustainable, number of idiot squares... and buy a few cheap round bales if you're short of hay. Cuz round bales are cheap now. It's almost like people are making them for the fun of it...

The problem with that is - lots of small operations are not set up for big round bales. First you have to have a tractor and loader to move them. Then you need round bale feeders - lots of lost hay if all you have 1 to 5 head. If you are trying to feed quality hay you have to keep it dry - many old farmsteads have a barn for squares - but not a pole shed to store big rounds.

My son is sold on using an accumulator instead of a kicker. The bales are not beaten up and it's easy to load and unload in a pole barn. Before that we did it old school by picking them up by hand in the field - fields were way to rough to hook a wagon to the baler.

 

[will-max dairy]

I am with you on the thrower comments, but you need dependable help to stack on the wagon. Really you need two people on the wagon in heavy hay or at least trade off with the driver every load or so. I have been involved in making hay every year as far back as I can remember and in my opinion it is hard to beat baling onto a wagon if you have the help, lots of wagons, and a place to shove them under cover afterwards. At this moment I have 8 loads of straw and some hay still on wagons from the last couple go rounds of baling. I have used throwers in the past and great when you are by yourself , and for a few years we used a belt thrower and still stacked on a flat rack. Problem with that was operator had to be dilegent in constantly changing thrower to set bales were stacker wanted them. ( and more importantly to not knock someone off the wagon!) I was finally persuaded to lose the thrower as my help was in the lose it or me mode as she was sick of eating chaff I guess?? ( honest I never once hit her with a bale!!) The huge advantage to baling/stacking onto wagon ( as long as you have lots of wagons) is you can get lots of hay baled, and when you are done it is off the field . We usually head to field with at least 2 wagons behind baler, so when first one is loaded drop the back wagon, pull full load out of the windrow, circle around and hook the empty wagon up, grease the plunger, check the twine and you are back in business. Are you sure we shouldnt be called idiots when we bale good hay into round bales and if fortunate get less than half the price of what you get out of small squares??

We generally don't send people out to bale, or do any field work, alone. Even when using the thrower and kicker racks... if my father-in-law is baling, my wife rides with him... to help hook, unhook, sometimes rearrange the bales on the wagon.

If our daughter bales, either our son-in-law or my wife rides with her.

I'm the only one that ever bales with the thrower alone... and after spending days at my office job, in an office, alone... I don't mind some company, even if it means that I stack the bales while someone else drives...

 

[Destroked 450]

Never been around a thrower but it looks like it would be a time consuming job unloading a load of thrown bales
I have the extension chute on my 273 for loading a flat wagon behind the baler
Spent much of my youth helping neighbors pick squares up off the ground
If I was younger and baled more than the couple hundred squares we make today I’d give an accumulator and grapple serious consideration
We switched to mainly round bales in the 90’s lining them in rows at first, then stacking and tarping when we got a loader for a tractor until we build a open shed hay barn in 2011
Round bales do sell for less than squares pound for pound but with less than a 1/3 of labor cost invested in rounds I end up with more cash in my pocket at the end of the year

 

[will-max dairy]

Never been around a thrower but it looks like it would be a time consuming job unloading a load of thrown bales
I have the extension chute on my 273 for loading a flat wagon behind the baler
Spent much of my youth helping neighbors pick squares up off the ground
If I was younger and baled more than the couple hundred squares we make today I’d give an accumulator and grapple serious consideration
We switched to mainly round bales in the 90’s lining them in rows at first, then stacking and tarping when we got a loader for a tractor until we build a open shed hay barn in 2011
Round bales do sell for less than squares pound for pound but with less than a 1/3 of labor cost invested in rounds I end up with more cash in my pocket at the end of the year

I am open-minded about the round bale option. I have just avoided it thus far, because they don't feed very well in our setup... and the previously mentioned comment about needing a telehandler to get the same amount of hay in our hay loft... and the previously mentioned comment about the potential white-elephant-ness of said hayloft.

We have a long mud season around at both ends of winter... and plenty of lake effect snow. Small squares give us efficient feeding options indoors... for us, round bales would save summer labor and cost winter labor...

In areas with different climate that can feed outdoors year-round... or with the setup to feed round bales indoors efficiently... my vote would cast differently.

We also have a small footprint of 40 acres of owned land... so... to sacrifice a couple of acres to round bale storage outside; when there is already a hayloft... it just kinda irks me.

Round bales also serve, like in your situation, as a way to get started in hay, while you build storage facilities.

Which... brings up option #593 in my mental gyrations... dismantling the bank barn for its beams... and selling the materials.

Or... raising venison... because they grow naturally around here (which is a joke, because an average of one deer is killed on the highway in front of our house every two weeks or so... I would lose 80% of my "herd" to car predation every year, lol)...

 

[DanielW]

I am open-minded about the round bale option. I have just avoided it thus far, because they don't feed very well in our setup... and the previously mentioned comment about needing a telehandler to get the same amount of hay in our hay loft... and the previously mentioned comment about the potential white-elephant-ness of said hayloft.

We have a long mud season around at both ends of winter... and plenty of lake effect snow. Small squares give us efficient feeding options indoors... for us, round bales would save summer labor and cost winter labor...

In areas with different climate that can feed outdoors year-round... or with the setup to feed round bales indoors efficiently... my vote would cast differently.

Round bales also serve, like in your situation, as a way to get started in hay, while you build storage facilities.

Which... brings up option #593 in my mental gyrations... dismantling the bank barn for its beams... and selling the materials.

Ah, the same old debate re: bank barn dismantling. Always a tough one, especially if foundation work is involved. My opinion has always been: In 90% of the cases with these old bank barns, the cost to re-roof, re-side, and even do some foundation work (I'm a big fan of shot-crete for old field stone foundations) will be a small fraction of the cost to put a new, similar-sized building up - especially once you consider the troubles associated with new build permits, etc. It's not like you're saving any money by tearing down. You might glean a few hundred or even a couple thousand dollars in selling the bents and boards for goofball city folks to use as fireplace mantels, but it will hardly worth the effort to tear down, salvage, and sell.

If it were a case of only having enough room for one barn, then tearing down the bank barn and building new in its place would make sense. But seldom are our farms short on space. Everyone's case is different, but in mine I think it's better to put the (comparatively) small sum into keeping the old barns going. Then, if more space is still needed, build another barn/shed nearby. You can shot-crete, re-side, and put new steel roofing on most average-sized bank barns for $15,000 or so, and once done there's not much to go wrong for many more decades. As long as there's no significant rot in the bents or beams, an old bank barn with that kind of work done to it could very well be a better-built and longer-lasting structure than most new pole barns these days.

 

[will-max dairy]

Ah, the same old debate re: bank barn dismantling. Always a tough one, especially if foundation work is involved. My opinion has always been: In 90% of the cases with these old bank barns, the cost to re-roof, re-side, and even do some foundation work (I'm a big fan of shot-crete for old field stone foundations) will be a small fraction of the cost to put a new, similar-sized building up - especially once you consider the troubles associated with new build permits, etc. It's not like you're saving any money by tearing down. You might glean a few hundred or even a couple thousand dollars in selling the bents and boards for goofball city folks to use as fireplace mantels, but it will hardly worth the effort to tear down, salvage, and sell.

If it were a case of only having enough room for one barn, then tearing down the bank barn and building new in its place would make sense. But seldom are our farms short on space. Everyone's case is different, but in mine I think it's better to put the (comparatively) small sum into keeping the old barns going. Then, if more space is still needed, build another barn/shed nearby. You can shot-crete, re-side, and put new steel roofing on most average-sized bank barns for $15,000 or so, and once done there's not much to go wrong for many more decades. As long as there's no significant rot in the bents or beams, an old bank barn with that kind of work done to it could very well be a better-built and longer-lasting structure than most new pole barns these days.

All good points.

 

[Mac AR]

Yeah... it's a series of treadmills... there is a certain amount of hay where, nowadays, people using small squares should just give in to the round bale (or large square bale) gods. Then... there is a higher amount, where the people using round balers should just give in to the whopper chopper/bunk silo gods.

But... maybe there is a point within the small square paradigm where... you either stick with the thrower to get big enough to use a round baler... or you ditch the thrower and stay limited to a small, sustainable, number of idiot squares... and buy a few cheap round bales if you're short of hay. Cuz round bales are cheap now. It's almost like people are making them for the fun of it...

My thoughts are thus:
1. Anyone who is baling hay for his own use and puts up over 3k bales in a season ought to invest in a thrower.
2. If you are baling less than 3k a year and have the help, stacking on wagons is the way to go.
3. If health or age prevents you from doing the labor involved above, either hire your hay baled, buy a stack-liner, or go to rounds.

I bale about 1500 to 2k small squares per season; all of it for sale. I drop them in the field and the buyers pick them up, and pay for them on the way out. It's not a bad system for me. But if I was raising cattle and feeding my own hay, I'd have long ago went to round bales for no other reason than ease of handling by myself. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of help on the farm; just me and the wife, and my little brother occasionally. But, as long as all the local goat farmers want to buy hay at $4/ bale I'll keep baling it.

Mac