Since I'm Doing Idiot Squares Anyway

[will-max dairy]

I got into it again last winter with some guy buying "horse hay". He bought from us once in the while and last winter he called me up in a panic about needing hay. He knew we had a fairly large barn and sold a load or so a week. This is good brome hay with no weeds and put up without being over dried or moldy. I told him the hay belonged to my son and he needed to talk to him - he says "Yeah I talked to him he wants $10 a bale, I figured you'd be the reasonable one". So I told him $11 a bale and $12 if I had to help load it. He started in about how we were screwing people over and I told him to go buy abut 40 acres at $6000 an acre, buy a $10,000 tractor and a $5000 baler, and a $1000 mower, buy the fertilizer then take your vacation days from work to put it up so it doesn't get rained on, then build a $10,000 shed to put it in and he too could get in on this cheap hay.


Those are the guys that you tell them cash or the truck doesn't leave with any bales.

I get along with horse people.

Mostly through judiciously not selling hay to many of them at any price.

Their heads have been filled with so many old wives tales from various hay sellers, other horse people and old timers... that I would rather be friends with them and feed most of our hay to our own animals.

 

[Mac AR]

t's all about storage and access to buyers.

As much as I worry about the maintenance of our bank barn... it will store 3x to 4x of what our current herd size needs. Right now, we have about 2x on hand. It's a nice feeling to be able to sit back and feel out the situation from this year to next, knowing that we could essentially park the haying equipment all of next year too...

Hay is a funny thing. When you're selling it, it's not worth much... but when you're buying it, it's gold.

You can bet one thing, within the next two years there will be a barn on this farm big enough to park a couple loads of hay under until it can be unloaded, and somewhere the hay equipment can be put in the dry. I can remember having a drought back about 10 years ago, lots of folks without hay and needing it bad, and some crooked SOB's were baling up sage-grass, buck brush, and blackberry briars and selling them for $40 to $50 a roll. Like you said, it's gold when you need it and trash when you don't.

I got into it again last winter with some guy buying "horse hay". He bought from us once in the while and last winter he called me up in a panic about needing hay. He knew we had a fairly large barn and sold a load or so a week. This is good brome hay with no weeds and put up without being over dried or moldy. I told him the hay belonged to my son and he needed to talk to him - he says "Yeah I talked to him he wants $10 a bale, I figured you'd be the reasonable one". So I told him $11 a bale and $12 if I had to help load it. He started in about how we were screwing people over and I told him to go buy abut 40 acres at $6000 an acre, buy a $10,000 tractor and a $5000 baler, and a $1000 mower, buy the fertilizer then take your vacation days from work to put it up so it doesn't get rained on, then build a $10,000 shed to put it in and he too could get in on this cheap hay.


Those are the guys that you tell them cash or the truck doesn't leave with any bales.

I have some rules about selling hay:

1. No horse people. No exceptions
2. If my hay doesn't suit you, you better decide that before you load it. You load it, you buy it. The end.
3. When it's loaded and paid for, the minute you pull out of the field you own it. No refunds, replacement, etc.
4. I will not, under any circumstances, deliver. Don't ask.
4b. I will not help you load. If I have to, the price automatically triples.
5. Cash is King. I take checks from regular customers, but new folks pay cash. Guess where you can stick your credit/debit card?

These rules have worked for me for a long times. I can normally sell everything I bale right out of the field and never touch a bale. Some years (like this one) are different of course, but it's a great arrangement for a guy with one eye, nine fingers, and a rotten back!

Mac

 

[Wdj]

My one family of horse hay customers come, load up and then stay until mine is stacked in the barn. Pay cash on the dot. No, I will not reveal their identity!

 

[will-max dairy]

You can bet one thing, within the next two years there will be a barn on this farm big enough to park a couple loads of hay under until it can be unloaded, and somewhere the hay equipment can be put in the dry. I can remember having a drought back about 10 years ago, lots of folks without hay and needing it bad, and some crooked SOB's were baling up sage-grass, buck brush, and blackberry briars and selling them for $40 to $50 a roll. Like you said, it's gold when you need it and trash when you don't.


I have some rules about selling hay:

1. No horse people. No exceptions
2. If my hay doesn't suit you, you better decide that before you load it. You load it, you buy it. The end.
3. When it's loaded and paid for, the minute you pull out of the field you own it. No refunds, replacement, etc.
4. I will not, under any circumstances, deliver. Don't ask.
4b. I will not help you load. If I have to, the price automatically triples.
5. Cash is King. I take checks from regular customers, but new folks pay cash. Guess where you can stick your credit/debit card?

These rules have worked for me for a long times. I can normally sell everything I bale right out of the field and never touch a bale. Some years (like this one) are different of course, but it's a great arrangement for a guy with one eye, nine fingers, and a rotten back!

Mac

My one family of horse hay customers come, load up and then stay until mine is stacked in the barn. Pay cash on the dot. No, I will not reveal their identity!

The horse people that I DO deal with are similar.

Friends that work with us cooperatively... they help us unload once in a while at our place... we bale their field for their horses.

We used to also sell some horse hay to a woman that we went to H.S. with, who wasn't picky or fancy... just wanted dry hay.

There used to be a couple that brought their horse trailer to the field a few times in the summer to get some hay as we baled it. Same thing. They just wanted something dry and decent... and we sold at a very reasonable price, since loading right at the field helped us to clear land on our busier haying days.

 

[E.B. Haymakin']

You've got it in spades.

Last weekend was the end of my hay season. Had my buyer all lined up to go, come Sunday he could only come and get one load out of the field and we were forecasted to get rain for the foreseeable future. We wound up baling about 2/3rds of the field, and managed to get all we baled under cover before the rain started. But the rest is currently on the ground, ruined. If I'd had another buyer lined up we might've saved it, but as it is it'll just get burned in a month or so. All that to say, it's one thing to bale a thousand bales, and quite another to sell them!

Mac

I know a lot may not want to fool with Facebook marketplace, but I'm floored at the volume of business interest it can generate. I haven't done any hay in years, had a couple acres available so I did it, posted on Facebook marketplace and it was gone in 24 hours

 

[Destroked 450]

You can bet one thing, within the next two years there will be a barn on this farm big enough to park a couple loads of hay under until it can be unloaded, and somewhere the hay equipment can be put in the dry. Mac

I’ve got a couple extra barns

Company we were raising chickens for closed the local processing plant putting us out of business, so we’ve had 3 43x500 buildings setting empty since January
I’ve got 400 4x5 rolls setting in house 2 and it’s not even half full yet
Got a couple wagons of squares setting in the back of house 2 along with stock trailer and other equipment
The other 2 barns still have litter in them for next years fertilizer

Plan is if we are not back in poultry business by January 2026 we’ll strip out the poultry equipment an repurpose the barns
I’m thinking one building half full of hay with some hay feeding bunks and tank waters in the back, then I can feed my cows inside in the dry all winter

 

[Mac AR]

I know a lot may not want to fool with Facebook marketplace, but I'm floored at the volume of business interest it can generate. I haven't done any hay in years, had a couple acres available so I did it, posted on Facebook marketplace and it was gone in 24 hours

It's certainly a thought. We'll see I guess. I'm sort of disgusted with hay right now and so I'm probably not thinking the way I should.

I’ve got a couple extra barns
View attachment 88117

Company we were raising chickens for closed the local processing plant putting us out of business, so we’ve had 3 43x500 buildings setting empty since January
I’ve got 400 4x5 rolls setting in house 2 and it’s not even half full yet
Got a couple wagons of squares setting in the back of house 2 along with stock trailer and other equipment
The other 2 barns still have litter in them for next years fertilizer

Plan is if we are not back in poultry business by January 2026 we’ll strip out the poultry equipment an repurpose the barns
I’m thinking one building half full of hay with some hay feeding bunks and tank waters in the back, then I can feed my cows inside in the dry all winter

Man, that sucks. But, you got plenty of room. Pity you can't sell me half of one and then snap your fingers and have it appear where I want it!

Mac

 

[m16ty]

There is a lot of hay put up in this area. In all my 50 years, I’ve never seen a bale thrower around here. They seem to be real popular in other parts of the country, but not here in middle TN. People either drop them on the ground and pick them up, pull a wagon behind the baler with somebody stacking, or a few use accumulators or NH bale wagons.

I’ve always thought using a kicker made a mess. Deformed bales and thrown in bales take up about twice as much space as stacked bales.

 

[m16ty]

My thoughts are thus:
1. Anyone who is baling hay for his own use and puts up over 3k bales in a season ought to invest in a thrower.
2. If you are baling less than 3k a year and have the help, stacking on wagons is the way to go.
3. If health or age prevents you from doing the labor involved above, either hire your hay baled, buy a stack-liner, or go to rounds.

I bale about 1500 to 2k small squares per season; all of it for sale. I drop them in the field and the buyers pick them up, and pay for them on the way out. It's not a bad system for me. But if I was raising cattle and feeding my own hay, I'd have long ago went to round bales for no other reason than ease of handling by myself. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of help on the farm; just me and the wife, and my little brother occasionally. But, as long as all the local goat farmers want to buy hay at $4/ bale I'll keep baling it.

Mac

Anybody putting up 3k of small squares a year should be selling hay, there is no reason on earth for somebody to put up than many small squares for their own use. If you are putting up over 500 or so small squares a year for your own use, you should invest in a round baler.

As far as making hay to sell, make as many small squares as you can sell. I used to put up about 5k squares a year to sell. If you do it right the profit margins are better with small squares than any other bale.

I tried one time selling small squares “in the field”, it was a disaster. Problem was people would commit, but then wouldn’t or couldn’t show up when it was time to bale. Then I was looking at a lot of hay in the field that I hadn’t planned on putting up, nobody showing up to pick it up, and storm clouds a brewing. Seems most hobby farmers and horse people (the market for small squares) seem to not understand that when the bay is ready it is ready, and not whenever it is convenient for you.

 

[Mac AR]

Anybody putting up 3k of small squares a year should be selling hay, there is no reason on earth for somebody to put up than many small squares for their own use. If you are putting up over 500 or so small squares a year for your own use, you should invest in a round baler.

Why? It's very easy to spend someone else's money. If you already have the equipment, why spend more money on a piece of equipment you really don't need. Besides that, if I'm already set up to feed squares then investing in equipment to store, move, and feed rounds is an expense I don't need.

Mac

 

[m16ty]

Why? It's very easy to spend someone else's money. If you already have the equipment, why spend more money on a piece of equipment you really don't need. Besides that, if I'm already set up to feed squares then investing in equipment to store, move, and feed rounds is an expense I don't need.

Mac

Older round balers are fairly cheap, cheaper than you can buy a good used square baler. If you are putting up 3k square bales, you're already paying out quite a bit in labor and/or bale handling equipment or you are one tired son-of-a-gun.

To each his own, but isn't not very efficient to be feeding 3k plus square bales compared to rounds.

 

[Mac AR]

Older round balers are fairly cheap, cheaper than you can buy a good used square baler.

I don't know where you are, but in this part of Arkansas a decent old square baler is $1500 to $3500; a round baler in useable shape can't be had under $5000. Not trying to be argumentative but that's a lot of money to a small farmer like me.

Mac

 

[DanielW]

I don't know where you are, but in this part of Arkansas a decent old square baler is $1500 to $3500; a round baler in useable shape can't be had under $5000. Not trying to be argumentative but that's a lot of money to a small farmer like me.

Mac

I'd tend to agree with Mac (or at least, understand his point of view). We feed a majority of our hay as rounds now, but it was a significant capital output to get set up for, and probably one we still haven't paid back. Not only the baler (we bought new in the 90's), but the barn to store the hay, modified feeders to be under cover and allow the bale to be dumped in by tractor, cement pads and roofs to feed under, etc. That was for feeding 50 animals or so.

I think climate might be a significant factor. If you're somewhere that only gets a foot or less of snow a year, where you can feed/store some rounds outside, and have decent pasture and temperatures 8 or 9 months of the year, round balers would definitely be a no-brainer. Especially as you can run more animals on less hay with longer pasturing seasons. But around here storing or feeding rounds outside during winter just isn't an option, and for a few months of the year you're having to plug in the tractor for a few hours before using it, plow your way through a few feet of snow to the bale barn, plow your way to the feeder, and then back to the shed. Even with us being set up for rounds, it's still often much easier to just walk up to the barn and throw some squares directly into the manger. I'm often pretty glad of the round baler in summer, but in the dead of winter I always strongly wish we had done more squares. In the last few years, we've actually increased the number of squares we do for that reason.

3000 round bales would only feed 20-25 animals per year around here (perhaps fewer, if you have less pasture in the summer). You'd have to to be raising cattle for a loooong time to justify the capital output of round bale equipment and storage for only 25 animals.

 

[m16ty]

I don't know where you are, but in this part of Arkansas a decent old square baler is $1500 to $3500; a round baler in useable shape can't be had under $5000. Not trying to be argumentative but that's a lot of money to a small farmer like me.

Mac

Around here (Tennessee) you can buy a round baler the same vintage as a $2,000 square baler for $1,000-$1,500.

 

[Mac AR]

Around here (Tennessee) you can buy a round baler the same vintage as a $2,000 square baler for $1,000-$1,500.

Not the case here. Anything worth owning is gonna run 5k plus here. What isn't over that, is either obsolete or clapped out.

Mac

 

[m16ty]

Ya know...

If our barn was setup differently...our storage is in an old-school bank barn loft... but... If I was piling in a nice, long single story shed like that green one in the background... that there bale accumulator thingy would be the cat's meow.

I have the same equivocation about round bales or big squares. To store the same amount of hay that we do now... we would need a telehandler to do the piling.... or we would need to pile outside... essentially making our hayloft a big, white elephant that we don't need anymore.

Actually... as much as I love our hayloft... it is growing into a white elephant all on its own... we can get the kit for a 120x40 metal building for less than a roof replacement for the hayloft...

With a New Holland bale wagon, it can still work great with putting hay in a loft. When I was still putting up squares with a bale wagon we put some in the loft. I would pick up a load in the field, take it to the barn and dump the stack beside the elevator. There would be 3-4 guys putting the hay in the loft, I'd go back to the field and get another load, and by the time I got back to the barn the guys there were ready to take the next load. Cut the time in half and with less labor than to have the crew pick them up out of the field and put in the barn.

 

[m16ty]

I am open-minded about the round bale option. I have just avoided it thus far, because they don't feed very well in our setup... and the previously mentioned comment about needing a telehandler to get the same amount of hay in our hay loft... and the previously mentioned comment about the potential white-elephant-ness of said hayloft.

We have a long mud season around at both ends of winter... and plenty of lake effect snow. Small squares give us efficient feeding options indoors... for us, round bales would save summer labor and cost winter labor...

In areas with different climate that can feed outdoors year-round... or with the setup to feed round bales indoors efficiently... my vote would cast differently.

We also have a small footprint of 40 acres of owned land... so... to sacrifice a couple of acres to round bale storage outside; when there is already a hayloft... it just kinda irks me.

Round bales also serve, like in your situation, as a way to get started in hay, while you build storage facilities.

Which... brings up option #593 in my mental gyrations... dismantling the bank barn for its beams... and selling the materials.

Or... raising venison... because they grow naturally around here (which is a joke, because an average of one deer is killed on the highway in front of our house every two weeks or so... I would lose 80% of my "herd" to car predation every year, lol)...

We put up mostly round bales, feeding cows at the family farm. I do have a small herd of goats at my place that I've put up about 300 squares to feed them. This year I'm switching to rounds for the goats too. Putting up the hay isn't the issue, I fill 2 wagons behind the baler and back them into the shed, the issue I'm trying to cut back on is feeding. Squares are just more trouble feeding for me, mainly because I have to feed more often. Granted, I'm in Tennessee and we don't have to deal with much bitter cold or snow. Feeding inside is nice, but it just makes a big mess inside the barn that you have to clean out.

 

[Destroked 450]

3000 round bales would only feed 20-25 animals per year around here (perhaps fewer, if you have less pasture in the summer). You'd have to to be raising cattle for a loooong time to justify the capital output of round bale equipment and storage for only 25 animals.
3000 round bales would only feed 20-25 animals per year around here (perhaps fewer, if you have less pasture in the summer). You'd have to to be raising cattle for a loooong time to justify the capital output of round bale equipment and storage for only 25 animals.

Did you mean 3000 square bales or 300 rounds, one should be able feed 25 open 1200 lb cows thru a 150 day winter feeding on 200-250 4x5 rounds, another 25 rolls if their lactating

We transitioned for small squares to rounds in the early 90’s when I purchased a well used Hesston round baler for $2200 and a 3 point bale spear, getting enough help to put up all squares had become to much of a challenge. We lined up bales in rolls outside until a cheap loader was acquired to stack and cover, after a number of years we were able to put up a 40x40 Quonset hut hay barn, with our increased cattle herd we were still stacking and tarping 200 rolls on a gravel pad until this year.
As for feeding that’s another work in progress but I absolutely hate hay rings and refuse to use them, fence line hay bunks are a much better option but also more costly and like hay rings you need one for every 10-12 cows

My best advice for anyone that hasn’t mess with rounds is to pay a neighbor to roll some of their hay and try it, your only investment would be a used 3 point bale spear

 

[will-max dairy]

We put up mostly round bales, feeding cows at the family farm. I do have a small herd of goats at my place that I've put up about 300 squares to feed them. This year I'm switching to rounds for the goats too. Putting up the hay isn't the issue, I fill 2 wagons behind the baler and back them into the shed, the issue I'm trying to cut back on is feeding. Squares are just more trouble feeding for me, mainly because I have to feed more often. Granted, I'm in Tennessee and we don't have to deal with much bitter cold or snow. Feeding inside is nice, but it just makes a big mess inside the barn that you have to clean out.

I actually can't see the economic utility in keeping a baler around to do 300 small squares, unless it's in perfect running condition and serves as a backup to clean up a field if the round baler breaks.

But also... the economic argument for a lot of what we do on farms, especially small ones, is mostly out the window anyway.


My "magic number" to justify having a baler of either type is around 3,000 small squares, or about 150 round bales... either for sale or your own use. Otherwise, I would try to work with a neighbor that has the other type of baler... which isn't always possible either... farmers are staunchly independent people. To that end, I can think of a few instances, where farmers around me have more modern small square balers, in better condition than mine... and they haven't put a single bale of hay through them in a few years or more...as they have either switched to round bales, silage... or gotten out of hay completely, but aren't forced to sell anything.

 

[Destroked 450]

I actually can't see the economic utility in keeping a baler around to do 300 small squares, unless it's in perfect running condition and serves as a backup to clean up a field if the round baler breaks.

But also... the economic argument for a lot of what we do on farms, especially small ones, is mostly out the window anyway.

Economically I own a number of pieces of equipment and additional tractors I would have trouble justifying, but needed it the time I could justify all but maybe a couple of tractors. Naturally extra tractors doesn’t count and only need to be justified with the wife
I purchased a real nice NH 273 square baler at an estate auction a few years ago, the baler had seen little use and still had paint on the chains, original tires where bad dry rotted so I put new ones on, so far we’ve baled less than 200 squares with it
Looks like it’s as economically feasible to me as it was to the original owner