TSX Carburetor Flooding

[wore out]

Hi scootergmc and all, everybody loves a mystery novel, and it is because not all the facts are known right away. It is the journey that is of interest. Don't let this stop you from getting involved, look at it as entertainment.

I am confident that I have found the solution, although it will take me days to be sure. I do not want to waste any more of your time and I apologize for the time I have wasted . The solution appears to be the air cleaner.

When I bought the tractor it ran well. There was no reason to suspect anything. It started having problems after it sat here for a while. But then, life is like that: things go well until they don't, then go bad suddenly, sometimes very bad. The air cleaner waited for me to get the tractor before it clogged up enough to cause problems. When I saw the fuel, I took it to be flooding, since the carb had never been touched, and it had over 60 years to wear on the float valve.

I should have noticed it right away. I blame it on having been raised in the city. I never worked on large machinery and in particular on anything with this kind of air filtration, except for a very old lawn mower, or two. Truth is, it has not been cleaned in many years, and the pre-cleaner was almost plugged. I'm sure I saw it at some point too, probably thinking the pre-cleaner was oiled foam instead of the hardware cloth it really is. That is what it looked like. The poor engine was just doing it's best as long as it could. It is a reminder to do regular maintenance. The previous owners didn't. I should have known that too, since they added water to the antifreeze when the radiator leaked. Who would do that in this part of the country?

Again, thanks to all of you for your time and consideration.

You are most welcome!

And thanks for posting back with what seems to be the solution.

So many come here with problems and members spend a lot of time trying to help them, and then the O.P. disappears and we never know if their problem was ever solved.

If something changes or another problem crops up please come back and let us know about it, there's MANY here willing to help

 

[scootergmc]

Hi scootergmc and all, everybody loves a mystery novel, and it is because not all the facts are known right away. It is the journey that is of interest. Don't let this stop you from getting involved, look at it as entertainment.

I am confident that I have found the solution, although it will take me days to be sure. I do not want to waste any more of your time and I apologize for the time I have wasted . The solution appears to be the air cleaner.

When I bought the tractor it ran well. There was no reason to suspect anything. It started having problems after it sat here for a while. But then, life is like that: things go well until they don't, then go bad suddenly, sometimes very bad. The air cleaner waited for me to get the tractor before it clogged up enough to cause problems. When I saw the fuel, I took it to be flooding, since the carb had never been touched, and it had over 60 years to wear on the float valve.

I should have noticed it right away. I blame it on having been raised in the city. I never worked on large machinery and in particular on anything with this kind of air filtration, except for a very old lawn mower, or two. Truth is, it has not been cleaned in many years, and the pre-cleaner was almost plugged. I'm sure I saw it at some point too, probably thinking the pre-cleaner was oiled foam instead of the hardware cloth it really is. That is what it looked like. The poor engine was just doing it's best as long as it could. It is a reminder to do regular maintenance. The previous owners didn't. I should have known that too, since they added water to the antifreeze when the radiator leaked. Who would do that in this part of the country?

Again, thanks to all of you for your time and consideration.

Ha. No worries. I have only myself to blame. I love carb issues but I assume too much when getting into these threads. I should always ask for the Paul Harvey synopsis... The rest of the story.

 

[showcrop]

Hi scootergmc and all, everybody loves a mystery novel, and it is because not all the facts are known right away. It is the journey that is of interest. Don't let this stop you from getting involved, look at it as entertainment.

I am confident that I have found the solution, although it will take me days to be sure. I do not want to waste any more of your time and I apologize for the time I have wasted . The solution appears to be the air cleaner.

When I bought the tractor it ran well. There was no reason to suspect anything. It started having problems after it sat here for a while. But then, life is like that: things go well until they don't, then go bad suddenly, sometimes very bad. The air cleaner waited for me to get the tractor before it clogged up enough to cause problems. When I saw the fuel, I took it to be flooding, since the carb had never been touched, and it had over 60 years to wear on the float valve.

I should have noticed it right away. I blame it on having been raised in the city. I never worked on large machinery and in particular on anything with this kind of air filtration, except for a very old lawn mower, or two. Truth is, it has not been cleaned in many years, and the pre-cleaner was almost plugged. I'm sure I saw it at some point too, probably thinking the pre-cleaner was oiled foam instead of the hardware cloth it really is. That is what it looked like. The poor engine was just doing it's best as long as it could. It is a reminder to do regular maintenance. The previous owners didn't. I should have known that too, since they added water to the antifreeze when the radiator leaked. Who would do that in this part of the country?

Again, thanks to all of you for your time and consideration.

Congratulations! and thanks for posting back. It seems like every six weeks or so that someone comes on here with a very basic simple problem that many of us have seen numerous times, but the poster is sure that there problem is not a simple one but that it is a very unusual one. They will resist performing the tests that are suggested and keep asking for help with their exotic problem which has already been eliminated. Some of these posters eventually just seem to "go away mad". It is to your credit, that though you did certainly resist for awhile you did finally investigate the suggestion that paid off.

 

[LittleMo]

Problem finally solved: Bad ground to the distributor.

I cleaned the air pre-cleaner and the breathers as well. There was less fuel in the intake, but there was still some, because the engine was running so poorly. I decided not to bother anyone until I found the real answer.

Opened up the carburetor a couple more times, cleaned and blew it out. Thought about buying a rebuilt one from Reliable, but decided I should check everything else out first. It never was the carburetor! Checked the timing, mechanically, as per the manual. Took the distributor off and checked the advance ( it did need to be cleaned and lubed ), put it back; no change. Put the old coil and condenser back on, no change. Decided I better rule out a blown head gasket, so I looked at the oil and antifreeze again; all good. Checked the compression, all 135-140. Put an endoscope in the valve cover and checked the valve timing. Put the endoscope in the intake and exhaust manifolds: no wasp or mouse nests. Finally decided to add a ground wire to the distributor, even though I checked the ground with a meter when I rewired the tractor. The ground problem must have only shown up with engine vibration. It took most of the winter, but at least I found the answer to the problem.

Again, thank you all for your time and consideration!

 

[used red MN]

Problem finally solved: Bad ground to the distributor.

I cleaned the air pre-cleaner and the breathers as well. There was less fuel in the intake, but there was still some, because the engine was running so poorly. I decided not to bother anyone until I found the real answer.

Opened up the carburetor a couple more times, cleaned and blew it out. Thought about buying a rebuilt one from Reliable, but decided I should check everything else out first. It never was the carburetor! Checked the timing, mechanically, as per the manual. Took the distributor off and checked the advance ( it did need to be cleaned and lubed ), put it back; no change. Put the old coil and condenser back on, no change. Decided I better rule out a blown head gasket, so I looked at the oil and antifreeze again; all good. Checked the compression, all 135-140. Put an endoscope in the valve cover and checked the valve timing. Put the endoscope in the intake and exhaust manifolds: no wasp or mouse nests. Finally decided to add a ground wire to the distributor, even though I checked the ground with a meter when I rewired the tractor. The ground problem must have only shown up with engine vibration. It took most of the winter, but at least I found the answer to the problem.

Again, thank you all for your time and consideration!

For others In terms of getting a feel for any things that might lead to this problem, has your M5 been recently painted? If so do you think this was a factor in the cause of the bad distributor ground? The ground you added only goes from the distributor housing to the block? Does the tractor have electronic ignition? Would you mind adding a photo of the distributor and the lock down device?

 

[showcrop]

Problem finally solved: Bad ground to the distributor.

I cleaned the air pre-cleaner and the breathers as well. There was less fuel in the intake, but there was still some, because the engine was running so poorly. I decided not to bother anyone until I found the real answer.

Opened up the carburetor a couple more times, cleaned and blew it out. Thought about buying a rebuilt one from Reliable, but decided I should check everything else out first. It never was the carburetor! Checked the timing, mechanically, as per the manual. Took the distributor off and checked the advance ( it did need to be cleaned and lubed ), put it back; no change. Put the old coil and condenser back on, no change. Decided I better rule out a blown head gasket, so I looked at the oil and antifreeze again; all good. Checked the compression, all 135-140. Put an endoscope in the valve cover and checked the valve timing. Put the endoscope in the intake and exhaust manifolds: no wasp or mouse nests. Finally decided to add a ground wire to the distributor, even though I checked the ground with a meter when I rewired the tractor. The ground problem must have only shown up with engine vibration. It took most of the winter, but at least I found the answer to the problem.

Again, thank you all for your time and consideration!

Well, you certainly have a great ability to come up with unique first time in history problems!!

 

[scootergmc]

And now we have the rest of the story.

 

[LittleMo]

I wasn't going to say any more about it, but I suppose I should restate the symptoms and the solution together.

With carb set at book settings, engine would idle OK then die after 15-20 seconds. It sounded like it was choking when it died, gave up with a puff of rich smoke.
With the power needle set out far enough for the engine to run, it idled OK, but the throttle had little or no effect, and it ran poorly when the throttle was pulled down. Almost like the main jet wasn't aerosolizing the fuel properly, and it was gulping raw gas. Lots of rich smoke and all Plugs were full of dry soot.
In either case there was raw gas in the intake and I had to keep my foot on the clutch to keep it running.
Solution this time; bad ground to distributor. I suppose no power is a clue.

It is unusual for something directly attached to an engine to have a bad ground, but on these machines the distributor is attached to the water pump housing and that is attached to the engine. When I rewired the tractor, because of its age, I considered putting in ground wires to the alternator and distributor. Instead, I checked those grounds with a meter, and they seemed really good, so I didn't. I could have saved myself a lot of time and trouble if I had put them in. Those wires are there now!

Hi used red MN. It's just an old M5, mostly untouched, and never repainted. It still has points. If it is really good, it might get painted someday, but it will never be a show tractor. I put the ground wires all to one point, at the end of the battery cable, where it is attached to the starter and engine. A single point ground is usually considered best practice at low frequencies. If I could find a good place, it would also be connected to the block. I think the biggest problem is age, followed by cold temperature (shrinkage) and engine vibration. I think as the engine speed increased, the ground contact got worse and it limited the engine speed, so the throttle had no effect.

Hi scootergmc. Paul Harvey would have included the prequel.

 

[used red MN]

Thanks for the report back. If it was mine, I now would have to remove the ground wire to see if the symptom returned. That’s just me because I find the solution to your problem/symptoms somewhat unbelievable.

 

[showcrop]

I wasn't going to say any more about it, but I suppose I should restate the symptoms and the solution together.

With carb set at book settings, engine would idle OK then die after 15-20 seconds. It sounded like it was choking when it died, gave up with a puff of rich smoke.
With the power needle set out far enough for the engine to run, it idled OK, but the throttle had little or no effect, and it ran poorly when the throttle was pulled down. Almost like the main jet wasn't aerosolizing the fuel properly, and it was gulping raw gas. Lots of rich smoke and all Plugs were full of dry soot.
In either case there was raw gas in the intake and I had to keep my foot on the clutch to keep it running.
Solution this time; bad ground to distributor. I suppose no power is a clue.

It is unusual for something directly attached to an engine to have a bad ground, but on these machines the distributor is attached to the water pump housing and that is attached to the engine. When I rewired the tractor, because of its age, I considered putting in ground wires to the alternator and distributor. Instead, I checked those grounds with a meter, and they seemed really good, so I didn't. I could have saved myself a lot of time and trouble if I had put them in. Those wires are there now!

Hi used red MN. It's just an old M5, mostly untouched, and never repainted. It still has points. If it is really good, it might get painted someday, but it will never be a show tractor. I put the ground wires all to one point, at the end of the battery cable, where it is attached to the starter and engine. A single point ground is usually considered best practice at low frequencies. If I could find a good place, it would also be connected to the block. I think the biggest problem is age, followed by cold temperature (shrinkage) and engine vibration. I think as the engine speed increased, the ground contact got worse and it limited the engine speed, so the throttle had no effect.

Hi scootergmc. Paul Harvey would have included the prequel.

Well, you certainly have a great ability to come up with unique first time in history problems!!

 

[LittleMo]

"When all else fails, what is left, no matter how unlikely it is, must be the solution." Adding the ground wire fixed the problem. It now runs very well.

This should not be an unknown problem. After all, there are a lot of old tractors out there. Age brings corrosion, even if it is just a thin film of oxidation / tarnish. The distributor and water pump are attached to a gear housing, that is attached to the front of the engine. There are at least three joints between the distributor and the engine block. Each joint has the potential of being a problem. I suppose, many of you would have taken the whole tractor apart after buying it, and rebuilt / refurbished the tractor. Everything would have been cleaned, and the whole tractor painted to protect it. You would never have experienced the problem. I am only interested in having a working tractor that will start in the winter for a few hours of snow blowing, and to do a few odd jobs in the summer. It doesn't pay for me to refurbish the tractor. I wouldn't open it up and do major work on it, unless I had to.

 

[used red MN]

"When all else fails, what is left, no matter how unlikely it is, must be the solution." Adding the ground wire fixed the problem. It now runs very well.

This should not be an unknown problem. After all, there are a lot of old tractors out there. Age brings corrosion, even if it is just a thin film of oxidation / tarnish. The distributor and water pump are attached to a gear housing, that is attached to the front of the engine. There are at least three joints between the distributor and the engine block. Each joint has the potential of being a problem. I suppose, many of you would have taken the whole tractor apart after buying it, and rebuilt / refurbished the tractor. Everything would have been cleaned, and the whole tractor painted to protect it. You would never have experienced the problem. I am only interested in having a working tractor that will start in the winter for a few hours of snow blowing, and to do a few odd jobs in the summer. It doesn't pay for me to refurbish the tractor. I wouldn't open it up and do major work on it, unless I had to.

It’s not that I don’t believe you. I am just saying if it was mine or I was involved removing the ground wire as a test is what I would need to do to prove it to my brain since it seems to be an obscure event to me. On an online photo I can barely make out the configuration of the distributor mount. Again having a photo of the setup would maybe help. If you have a smart phone it’s easy. Take the photo, log into YT, find this thread, make a reply and use “Attach files” it takes you to where the photos are stored on your phone to select them, click Add. Thanks for the reply.

 

[LittleMo]

I'm on a computer. Here are a few pictures of the 336-4 MM engine that I found online. It is the same engine that is on the M5, and many others. You can see the arrangement much better since the fan and radiator are gone. The distributor has been removed on the two engine pictures but you can see where it goes. The third is of a show tractor, showing the engine with the distributor attached. As for removing the wire, I have tortured the poor thing enough already.

 

[used red MN]

Thank you, interesting! The configurations Minnie used is interesting, like that gear drive water pump. They also had an engine in the R with vertical pistons and horizontal valves. They certainly didn’t care about following main stream designs. But I guess look at Deere, they were still producing 2 cylinder tractors the year before your M5 came out. Hope it treats you well especially when it’s cold, it’s crappy when you have to work on something in the wet and cold.

 

[caterpillar guy]

Yes I can se with a couple gaskets and old bolts how there could be a ground problem. Never encountered one there though but most other engines have the distributor in the block so fewer connections to get through. Though Ih has a similar set up with the distributor being on the side after the timing gears and in some cases the hydraulic pump. So a couple gaskets there with old bolts too.

 

[used red MN]

Removed

 

[showcrop]

"As for removing the wire, I have tortured the poor thing enough already."

Interesting view.

 

[LittleMo]

Last night I was thinking about it, and the final piece of the puzzle fell into place. It is like "Fate Is The Hunter". So let me take you "ONE STEP BEYOND".

Last fall I had gotten in the last of the wood for the winter. My thoughts then, as a man's are wont to do that time of year, turned to snow removal. I had been working on the tractor and it was a little hard to turn over, but it started and ran well. So I went to Craigslist and bought a three point snowblower. It was delivered and the next day I started up the tractor hoping to drive it up the hill and attach it to the snowblower. I backed it out of the machinery shed.

Here is where everything went wrong. The tach stopped moving and the engine died. I tried to start it a couple of times and it would not start. Then the starter died. Don't feel sorry for it. It had a long life, and a Viking funeral. It was a dead short. I always wondered why battery connectors are usually lead. I thought it was something about not using a dissimilar metal. But really they are the fuse of last resort before the battery explodes. The connector melted, leaving a pool of lead on the battery. Fortunately the tractor was modified for a regular battery and it didn't have the long one, so the fireworks didn't happen right next to me. This is also where I noticed the gas dripping from the intake, and became fixated with the carburetor. I had some aircraft cable around and I spent the next day winching the tractor back into the shed.

I had enough money into the project, at this point, that I swallowed hard and spent the almost $600 for a new starter. I bought the old Autolite style, since it was cheaper, but they shipped the new Delco style instead; better (but it doesn't quite mesh right with the ring gear). When I put it on, the tractor would not start. I checked the spark and there was none. Took the instrument panel off. Turned out that the ignition wire had pulled out of a butt connector, and the ignition switch was bad as well. This is where I decided to re-wire the tractor completely. When I finished, I started it up and the symptoms appeared. You know the rest.

Did you notice the clue? ( "Jeopardy" music here ).

Highest marks here, to those of you who voted for the "tachourmeter" quitting! The tach cable is steel, with a metal cap on the meter end and a plastic cap on the end that attaches below the distributor. The cable was broken inside, at the distributor end. ( I still haven't found it. I hope it doesn't hurt anything.) It is almost certain that the grounding problem existed when I bought the tractor, and the tractor was running well. The cable runs along the engine and touches many things, including the line to the oil pressure gauge. It probably was grounding through the tach cable all the time. When it broke inside the ground connection did too!

 

[showcrop]

You are one of a kind!!

 

[used red MN]

You are one of a kind!!

Maybe he is thinking the same of you. Or any of us.