Whats Your Opinion ? Non-Detergent oil Lead Substitute

L B

Member
A few days ago I posted my opinion on oil change and what type and weight to use. I stated that I also use Lead-Substitute in my gas. Today there is another N owner asking about oil type. I stated in my previous post that I had knowledge of 2 motors that had their ND-oil replaced with Detergent oil and it resulted in plugged filters and pumps. I was told it was a myth, and even felt they thought I had made it up. I was also told that they have used nothing but Detergent oil in the crankcase and ATF as Lead-Substitute.I was also told Lead-Substitute was just petroleum distillant and was French for Diesel. So this week I spent a little time to research my fellow N owners replys to me. The oil myth is not a myth it is backed by facts. Almost all the tractor forums have some posters who have had problems with the change over to Detergent oil when it had been used in a motor that had had only Non-Detergent oil used previously. That said, it does not mean it will happen to every motor. I am sure there are a lot of variables involved. I also stated that after an overhaul use what you want. Lead-Substitute is something I use in my tractors and pickups made pryor to 1977. As far as it being just diesel fuel it is not. I use CD2, 1oz treats 10 gals and I also use Marvel oil, both cheaper then $4 a qt ATF and I doubt 1oz of ATF in 10 gals of gas could be much good or even detectable without a gascromatagraph. I found over 40 products with petroleum distillant listed as what they are so it is not just diesel however diesel can be used to stop engine ping at low altitudes. I got the backing of the following on my opinions
in these magazines, Farm Colletor and Gas Engines magazine. I have included a post from Yesterday's Tractors in this post and I invite everyone to read the 2 attchments of Yesterdays Tractor Articles. Again, I am only stating my opinion and what I have found in my research. I also found fourm posts that do not support my opinion as well.
Tuning Up Your Tractor (Part 3)
Oil, Oil Filter and Air Breather
by Curtis Von Fange

In the preceding articles we discussed some of the various aspects of doing a comprehensive tune up. Hopefully some light was shed on why we do or don't do certain things pertaining to inspections and order of events when doing a tune up. Perhaps some useful reasons were given for why parts fail and what to do about preventing part failure in the future. All these tips will help us think and reason out a problem in order to make our tune up last and, hopefully, keep us from spending extra money.

If the reader has been present from the beginning of this series he will recall making an inventory list before the tune up procedures began. On this list was a collection of observations of the overall engine and tractor condition. Some of the items on that list include the fluid levels and their color. As we continue our tune up discussion we will continue to examine some of the notes that were made.

The oil color can help you determine whether or not it is time for a change. On a gasoline engine, oil that is black as pitch is way beyond the change interval. Indications are that it is full of dissolved carbon and dirt. On the other hand, a diesel will usually have a black color to it as it is a reaction of the oil compounds and additives to the blow by of the piston which contains diesel fuel, sulphur, and emissions. A heavy brownish color of the oil along with tarnish on the dipstick usually indicates that the motor has been hot. The hot conditions have forced certain compounds of the oil to chemically react and produce the varnish looking appearance. A milky white color indicates excessive moisture in the engine. This can either result from a coolant leak into the oil or can be attributed to frequent on/off operation in colder or humid climates without letting the engine come up to a normal operating temperature for an extended period of time. Of course green droplets on the dipstick that smell sweet indicate antifreeze contamination in the crankcase. Oil that is an amber or lightish brown is the norm and should be changed along the recommended hourly or monthly guidelines supplied in your manual

A good tune up should include a fresh change of oil and filter. The oil is the blood of the motor. Microscopic oil films keeps moving metal parts from welding to each other. Keeping this lubricant clean and of a good quality will keep an engine running for many hours. There are many types of motor oils on the market today. Two basic catagories are the 'Texas' crudes and the 'Pennsylvania' crudes, each of which has their champions. Generally, the Texas crudes are pumped from deeper oil reservoirs and tend to have a higher parafinnic content than the Pennsylvania crudes. Since the oils have to meet a standard for parafin content it probably doesn't matter which geographic location it comes from. Oil viscosity is how fast the oil pours under given conditions. The lower the vis number the faster it flows. A 10 weight motor oil pours like milk at room temperature while a 40 weight pours like syrup. Lighter weights should be used under cold climate conditions where the motor will take a long time to come up to operating temperature; the lighter oil will lubricate better when cold. A heavier weight is best under hot climate or above normal engine running conditions as it won't run off of the motor parts as fast as a lighter oil. That is where multiviscosity oil, such as 10w-30, comes in. It has the characteristics of 10w oil when the engine first starts and the characteristics of 30w after operating temperature is reached. Some manufacturers recommend only a straight weight for their particular motor, so check your specs before you buy your oil.

Another motor oil rating is the American Petroleum Institute or API rating. This rating, SA, SB, SC, or CA, CB, CC pertains to the application of the oil. The 'S' related numbers are referring to automobile useage, the 'C' rating is dealing with trucks, industrial, and diesel engine applications. The 'A' subheading refers to a light load application up to the 'C' subheading which is a more severe operation of the motor. The same applies for the 'C' main headings. Overall differences in the numbers pertain to the additives present in the oil which retard corrosion, sulphur content (as in diesels), particle suspension chemicals, moisture absorbability, oil shear, and the like. Check with your manual to determine the appropriate application for your engine. Some oils have a high detergent heading on their containers. Keep in mind that these oils have a high internal engine cleaning ability and may not be the best thing to put into an older, unrebuilt engine. These detergents can loosen up built up carbon, goo, and debris in an older unit that may cause more serious problems such as the plugging up of the oil intake screen or circulation galleys and filters. Non detergent oils are available and should be considered on older motors that have heavy deposit build ups under the valve covers or oil filler cap.

Bring the tractor up to operating temperature, shut it off, and drain the oil into a pan. If the tractor has a high oil pan you can put a wide mouth funnel into an old milk jug and drain it directly into your disposal container. Make sure that the jug is big enough to take all the crankcase has to offer, though. When the oil is drained clean the plug threads with a clean rag and reinstall the plug, then move your container underneath the oil filter. Remove it, place it upside down in your container or funnel and let the oil drain out. Wipe off any accumulated dirt around the seal where filter mates to the engine. If the filter is easy to get to and can be reinstalled without tipping, fill it with clean motor oil before replacing it. Remove the engine breather cap or oil filler cap and inspect its underside. It should be generally clean of carbon, dirt, and goo. Heavy buildup or concentrations of the above may indicate further ventilation problems in the motor vapor circuit. Check the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) valve and make sure it freely rattles and does not bind from excessive moisture/oil buildup. You also might check any vacuum hoses to the carburator base making sure they are not collapsed or have pin holes in them. Clean the oil cap and PCV valve with clean solvent, blow dry and reinstall. Fill the motor with the correct type and amount of oil. Do not overfill as the extra oil may cavitate in crankcase as the crankshaft counterweights come around. It will also promote seal and gasket failure by submerging those items in a constant bath of oil. One last note is to take the oil and filter to a recycling center for proper disposal. Consider that the oil itself never wears out, it merely gets dirty and the additives wear out. By re-refining it the oil will be identical to the stuff that comes out of the ground and goes through the same refining process.

After the oil and oil filter are replaced take a moment to inspect the air cleaner or oil bath unit. This often overlooked step may, literally, breath new life into your engine. If the filters have excessive dirt and debris in them it will reduce the efficiency of your engine by enriching the fuel to the combustion chamber. This will result in poor performance, black exhaust, excessive carbon buildup, washing of the cylinder walls from too much fuel, and internal engine wear. If the unit has a paper filter, remove it and inspect it for squashing or torn paper in the element itself along with any evidence of oil. If sound, reverse blow it (from inside to out) with an air gun taking care not to get too close to the paper itself with the air stream. Clean out the filter cannister, check the cannister to carburator gasket, and reinstall with the correct torque on the wingnut or retaining fastener. Oil in the filter element can indicate a faulty ventilation system or excessive blow by of the pistons from worn or broken rings. If the tractor has an oil bath cleaner assembly then remove the unit and disassemble on a work bench. Lift out the wire mesh and clean it in mineral spirits or equivalent solvent and let it air dry. Dispose of the oil in the lower body assembly, clean out the cannister bottom, and refill with fresh oil to the fill line. Check the tube that the air flows through to the engine (if so equiped) for dirt build up and debris. Also check the oil bath air cap assembly (if so equiped) for weed seeds and dirt. This unit is designed to make the incoming air create a vortex which moves much of the heavier material to the outside of the breather cap through centifugal force. The heavier debris then settles along the outside rim of the cap or dust collector instead of going into the oil bath itself. Before closing the cowl on the air breather service, check any intake air hoses between the engine and filter for cracking, drying out, oil contamination, or pin holes. In a dusty field even the smallest hole can let in damaging dirt.

Our engine should now have clean air and oil to extend it's life span and give it the ability to perform at its peak. Our topic next time will cover the cooling and fuel system along with miscellaneous tips on diagnosing engine maladies.

Product Review
Lead Substitutes
by Mike Schordine
Lead was originally added to gasoline as an upper cylinder lubricant. It lubes the valves and seats. If you rebuild the motor, you could use hardened seats and valves, and unleaded fuel.

But if your old tractor runs good, a simple lead substitute added to the gas is a perfectly reasonable solution. And, if you are like me, your tractor is under cover, but it sits outside. So with every temperature change, the humidity in the air collects in the fuel tank, in the form of water.

Now you need a moisture management protocol. Does this mean that you need to buy a bunch of additives? No! There is a product that I’ve been using for the last 10 years. It is a lead substitute, a moisture management package, and an octane booster!! It works so well that I became a distributor for the manufacturer.

It is called Maxi-Mizer. It’s made in this country, originally for the space shuttle program. The catalyst in it makes the fuel burn more completely and results in better fuel endurance. It burns the fuel in the motor, that would normally exit as unburnt hydrocarbons.

You could buy a lot of additives and still not get all the benefits of this one product.

When used with Maxi-Mizer MBL, the extreme pressure motor oil additive which reduces friction, the benefits are compounded. The extreme pressure lube can be added to the transmission, rear axle, and hydraulic system with similiar benefits.

These products are called the performance set, and have been used by the racing profession for years. Maxi-Mizer comes in gas and diesel formulas. For $22.00, one 16 oz. bottle treats 320 gallons of gasoline, and with all of its qualities, the choice of which additive to use is clear.

These products can be purchased from me, and your Farm Tax Exemptions are welcome. For more information and to purchase these products, please call Mike Schordine at (516) 924-2875; or e-mail at [email protected]. You can also write to:

Schordine Refrigeration, Inc.
134 Waverly Ave.
Patchogue, NY 11772
 
Lead sub. is a waste,period.As for the oil,if an engine has been ran on ND for 50 years and has a nice waxy buildup inside stick with the ND oil!I've seen many old engines ruined,even killed one myself many years ago by using HD oil.The detergent WILL cause the sludge to break free and clog things up.Why some people fail to believe this is beyond me...
 
Ya and it is pretty much all a scam non-detergent oil and detergent oil no big deal in switching and EVERY engine I have I have no idea what oil it had but ALL now have detergent oil in them and NEVER a problem and I have had 100s of engines over the past 40 years. As for the lead stuff it is pure snake oil and has no lead and does not replace lead it is just a way to make some company some $$
 
Lead substitute is not needed in tractors its a total waste of money. Changing an engine from non detergent to high detergent oil and damaging the engine is a myth as others have posted I change all my engine to detergent oil have never hurt a single one. By the way detergent is a marketing phrase there is no such thing as detergents in the oil THERE are NO scrubbing bubbles in the oil the true statement is ashless dispersant (AD) oil which mean the additive keep the impurities that are form by combustion in suspension in the oil so they are removed with oil changes.
GB in MN
 
tetra ethyl lead was an octane modifier that had a couple other side effects.. some beneficial, some not.

diesel, added to gass will do the same.

interestingly enough.. so will ethanol.. :)

all N's left the factor with hardened exhaust valve seats.

keep buying the lead adds which serve to line the pockets of the sellers if you wish.

keep buying non detergent lawnmower oil.. if you wish.

detergents help suspend debri so the filter can catch it.

PS..N filter is AFTER everything else gets oil.. so a plugged filter ain't a huge big deal .. :)

I don't use any lead subs in any of my machines. and I have a few... and I DO use detergent oil.

have bought some that looke dlike tar was in them. just took a couple changes with clean oil and some type of solvent and they ran clean.

not sure what your pont of this post was.. but doubt I'll read any further ones based on what I saw in this on.

have a good christmas.

soundguy
 
are you incapable of simply doing an oil change / flush in stages?

if you had an engine that you though was really loaded up, you could do the changeover in stages... start adding in quarts of HD oil and changine filters every few hours.

do this a while untill you are done flushing...

"Why some people fail to UNDERSTAND this is beyond me"


soundguy
 
Back in the 30's 40's and 50's when non detergent oil was used for the most part many guys would change the oil (my Granddad included) and keep the drain oil in a glass jug and set it on the bench after a month or so the contaminates would settle out and there would be clean oil in the jug above the crud, they would then carefully pour out the clean oil and reuse it at the next oil change that back when there was little if any additives and as we said around here we did have a pot to pee in or a widow to though it out of so they made do but times have changed.
GB in MN
 
Go along with you soundguy if you do it right you will have no problems.I have switched all my old tractors (9 of them) over to Rotella 15-40 HD oil with no problems.
 
You ask what my point was, It was to have you read the whole article and you didnt. Thanks for your opinion.
 
(quoted from post at 18:26:31 12/17/11) are you incapable of simply doing an oil change / flush in stages?

if you had an engine that you though was really loaded up, you could do the changeover in stages... start adding in quarts of HD oil and changine filters every few hours.

do this a while untill you are done flushing...

"Why some people fail to UNDERSTAND this is beyond me"


soundguy

OK wiseguy,i did this and plugged my pickup screen and threw rod bearings.The HD oil did this to a good running engine.If you pull the pan,and other covers to remove sludge maybe....
 
I have no use for either. If you want to reliably research engine oil try one of the rheology forums - not old tractor sites rife with poorly supported anecdotal data.

To the best of my knowledge there is no standard for "paraffin" content in motor oil. In fact the term parrafin is practically synonymous with motor oil which makes me wonder where your expert got his diploma. Here is one of the better explanations I've seen with the emphasis added by me:

[color=blue:0152343bbc][i:0152343bbc]A paraffin is just a common name for a saturated C-H chain (hydrocarbon chain). In chemistry they are known as an [u:0152343bbc][b:0152343bbc]alkane[/b:0152343bbc][/u:0152343bbc]. The term [u:0152343bbc][b:0152343bbc]paraffinic base oil[/b:0152343bbc][/u:0152343bbc] is derived from the term paraffin, meaning a [u:0152343bbc][b:0152343bbc]saturated hydrocarbon based oil[/b:0152343bbc][/u:0152343bbc].

Almost all motor oils contain, or, are mostly paraffin's (alkanes), including Group I, II, III, IV and many oils in Group V. The exception in motor oils are the ones based on esters (Group V) and other oils which are not paraffins in Group V, but a motor oil using only ester base oils is rare.

Paraffin is sometimes confused with paraffin wax. A paraffin isn’t necessarily a wax. There are paraffin type compounds and then there are paraffin waxes. The shorter paraffins (alkanes) like methane (CH4) and ethane (C2H6) are [u:0152343bbc][b:0152343bbc]gaseous[/b:0152343bbc][/u:0152343bbc] at room temperature. As the hydrocarbon chain gets longer ~ 10C, the C-H chained molecules become [u:0152343bbc][b:0152343bbc]liquid[/b:0152343bbc][/u:0152343bbc] at room temperature (oils), and when you have a long straight chain with ~20C atoms or more, the molecules will form a crystalline structure at room temperature known as a [u:0152343bbc][b:0152343bbc]wax[/b:0152343bbc][/u:0152343bbc].

PAO's are made from alkenes, which are not paraffins (alkane's). Alkenes = olefin = C-H molecule with at least one double C=C bond. Modern PAO's are hydrogenated to remove any remaining C=C double bonds (saturate the carbon atoms with hydrogen) to increase their thermal/oxidative stability, which in effect turns the chained alkenes in the PAO into alkanes, which are paraffin's. So, hydrogenated PAO's (Group IV) are paraffin's too.[/i:0152343bbc][/color:0152343bbc]


So oil that is comprised predominately of short chain saturated hydrocarbons (liquid paraffins) makes a good motor oil - higher viscosity index and lower pour point. Oil containing a large percentage of long chain saturated hydrocarbon (waxy paraffins) makes a poor motor oil - lower viscosity index and higher pour point. That's what the cracking stage of modern oil refining is all about - taking "bad" oil loaded with long chain waxy paraffins and breaking them into shorter chains to make "good" oil. Today with advanced refining processes like cracking we can take crappy crude and make oil just as good as we used to get from superior crude. Of course the crappy crude costs more to refine and is generally used for Group I and II base oils where the requirements are not as demanding - the better stuff going to make high-vi Group III oils. In fact the molecular re-arrangements can be so radical the API even allows super-highly refined dino oil to be labeled "synthetic" - drives the PAO crowd nuts....

TOH
 
All but one of my tractors are now on 15w40.. that one I went to a synthetic gasser oil since it had stuck valves and bent pushrods.. :)

worst one I had was a JD-B had what looke dlike 50w tarish engine oil in it and lots of water.

took 5 oil changes to get it clean.

and that oil filter ain't easy to get to under the dern tractor...
 
I did in fact read it.

It wasted a good 3 minutes of my life I could have been washing my nose hair or picking crud out from between my toes or soemthing more usefull...

I however.. won't be making that same mistake with any more of your posts / from that IP address...

soundguy
 
Ya and you probably ran an oil like Pennzoil or Quaker state which back in the days was wax based and it did get a build up on things and then if you switch yes the build up went bye bye and that in turn caused the rod bearing to let loose because it was wore out already and the wax just kept it from going out. Yep been in many engine that had run those oils and boy what a mess but they have improved it since way back when. But hey I have only been driving for 42 years now and working on engines for a few more years then that. Have more then 1.5 Million miles on my driving record
 
........you probably ran an oil like Pennzoil or Quaker state which back in the days ........
......in turn caused the rod bearing to let loose because it was wore out already.........
.....Yep been in many engine that had run those oils and boy what a mess .......

Thats the first thing I thought of , how long was that motor going to last ?

I have had many that ran great until the last 30 seconds before the big boom .

If changing your oil hurts your motor , then there probably wasn't much time left .


As a teen I would tear the motors down and start prepping parts for dad to rebuild . You could smell a Havoline motor before you got the valve covers off , then there would be slots in the sludge where the rocker arms moved .
 
Thanks I read a lot about oil the last few days and wax or lack of it, we live in a chemical world for sure. Thanks alot for your opinion.
 
"The oil myth is not a myth it is backed by facts. Almost all the tractor forums have some posters who have had problems with the change over to Detergent oil when it had been used in a motor that had had only Non-Detergent oil used previously."

It is certainly possible to do research on the web. However, there is a huge difference between finding "facts" and finding a few posters on a forum that happen to have the same opinion.

This is posted on the web by the Flat Earth Society: "Reasonable, intelligent people have always recognized that the earth is flat."

The detergent oil myth remains a myth. Problems caused by an oil change are most likely due to years of neglect. There seems to be more factual evidence that most aftermarket additives are a waste of money. But, it's your money to waste in whatever way makes you happiest.
 
Interesting....When ever we used to switch an old motor from ND to D, we ran it up to temp, drained the oil. Refilled to proper level with KEROSENE. Ran it at idle for about 20 minutes. Then drained it changed the filter and refilled with our Detergent oil. After about a weeks usage it got another oil/filter change.
Flushed them out clean as a whistle, never plugged anything up.

Now for the N's...All N's have a suction screen to keep chunkies out of the oil pump, and use a bypass oil filter not full flow, so a completely plugged filter won't hurt the motor at all, other than the gov. nothing gets oil from the filter output.

All N's came from the Factory with hardened valve seats and never needed Lead in the gas.

You seem to have spent a lot of time on your research, but seems you missed a few things...
 
When ever we used to switch an old motor from ND to D, we ran it up to temp, drained the oil. Refilled to proper level with KEROSENE. Flushed them out clean as a whistle, never plugged anything up.

You sir are a very lucky man....

I honestly do not mean to disparage you and only post this reply to prevent someone else from naively following your procedure.

There is little-to-no lubricating properties in kerosene and I am truly amazed as to how you did not spin a bearing by running your engines with only kerosene in the sump.
 
First of all where did that non-Detergent oil myth come from. It would be rare for any engine from that era to be running on oil less detergent. It is also a huge myth that lead additive is needed, naver was and never will be.
 

Actually the label says it all. Put it in older engines that don't have a filter or use it in your air compressor but do yourself a favor and don't put it in anything equipped with an automotive style oil filter - e.g. car, truck, tractor, airplane, boat, etc.... As Gaspump notes that's just about everything made since the early thirties. Even today's OHV lawnmowers have filters and need detergent oils.

TOH

IMG_1574.jpg
 
Lucky?...NOPE
many, many motors over 40+ years. Learned it from my Grandfather, He did it all His life. He was a mechanic / machinist.
There is enough residual oil and sludge to provide lubrication, Remember we were talking about a motor that has never had detergent oil in it. You would be correct for a motor that had been running detergent oil, it would probably destroy the bearings..
 
It would be rare for any engine from that era to be running on oil less detergent.

Both of the local dollar stores still sell non detergent oil . The price is about 20% less than detergent oil .

I would bet there are a lot of motors around here that are full of the cheap stuff from a poor Hillbilly that can't afford the expensive stuff . I know a few that never change their oil , just add some when it needs it .

Thinking about it , it would probably be better to change you oil with non detergent and a new filter every 3000 miles than to never change 10w30 detergent oil which would break down ?????
 
IMHO, it would be better to change with cheap regular 'detergent' oil from walmart on a 5k interval.. than the ND on 3000 interval.

supertech filters are as low as 2.88$ for some common ones.. oil is ? 2.84 / qt.. or if you can find your flavor in the 5qt jug, even cheaper.

hard to beat that...

soundguy
 
(quoted from post at 17:52:25 12/17/11) Lead sub. is a waste,period.As for the oil,if an engine has been ran on ND for 50 years and has a nice waxy buildup inside stick with the ND oil!I've seen many old engines ruined,even killed one myself many years ago by using HD oil.The detergent WILL cause the sludge to break free and clog things up.Why some people fail to believe this is beyond me...
 
(quoted from post at 17:52:25 12/17/11) Lead sub. is a waste,period.As for the oil,if an engine has been ran on ND for 50 years and has a nice waxy buildup inside stick with the ND oil!I've seen many old engines ruined,even killed one myself many years ago by using HD oil.The detergent WILL cause the sludge to break free and clog things up.Why some people fail to believe this is beyond me...


CT It is very obvious to me why some people don't believe you and it is very easy to end this debate. You probably are not aware that most readers here don't know you so they are not aware of your many higher education degrees, papers that you have written to document your research and findings, Foundations that you have received grant money from and done research for, as well as where you teach and what teaching fellowships you hold. In short you simply need to post your pedigrees and most people will probably believe you.
 
(quoted from post at 11:11:46 12/18/11) "The oil myth is not a myth it is backed by facts. Almost all the tractor forums have some posters who have had problems with the change over to Detergent oil when it had been used in a motor that had had only Non-Detergent oil used previously."

It is certainly possible to do research on the web. However, there is a huge difference between finding "facts" and finding a few posters on a forum that happen to have the same opinion.

This is posted on the web by the Flat Earth Society: "Reasonable, intelligent people have always recognized that the earth is flat."

The detergent oil myth remains a myth. Problems caused by an oil change are most likely due to years of neglect. There seems to be more factual evidence that most aftermarket additives are a waste of money. But, it's your money to waste in whatever way makes you happiest.

Whut he said...

While others were put'n miles under their belts I was wrenching on engines,,, Quaker state oil severed me well thru the years with no issues on my vehicles are a my customers... I have been into properly maintained engines with 200K on them that solely ran QS,,, they were clean a a baby's back side,,, Those engines were pre emission engines tho... Things changed up in as the target was all about lower emissions with whatcha got...

Engines that were slugged up were a sleeping giant waiting for a excuse to wake up,,, Detergent oil just happen to come along and get the blame,,, The blame lies in years of dirt and crud from poor maintenance are server operating conditions.... Their are engines that are known to sludge up to this day even if you change the oil every 3K with the best synthetics made... The original issue lies more so with engines that have a pizz poor filtered crank case vent/breathing system... Throw a hand full of dirt into a qt of detergent oil its not gonna dispersal.... For the record not all N's came with 8 harden valve seats,,, Also their was some good use full info in the original post,,, I will never look at a dip-stick the same again....
 

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Back
Top