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Rebuilt Cat 3204 motor will not start on own power.

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Old Magnet
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt Cat 3204 motor will not start on own power. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

425 psi compression is not sufficient for combustion. I would expect 550-600 psi cranking and 620-660 psi run. Anything below 445 psi is hard starting. Seems this engine has several issues going on and some of the logic is faulty.
Fuel pressure should not drop from 40 to 15 psi when running.
 
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AJ.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt Cat 3204 motor will not start on own power. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Well I have to admit you had me fooled into believing you had done the right thing by having the engine rebuilt by a professional engine rebuilding shop, what went wrong, did ye run it without oil, did they use the wrong size pistons, I think if I remember there were three different size pistons, standard and two oversize, what is stamped on the piston, when those engines were overhauled at my place the procedure was machine in, powered washed, engine out, stripped, examined, block to the machine shop to be re-bored, pistons would be supplied by the machine shop, same with the crank, if it was reground they would supply the bearings, when the parts came back to us into the hot tank, rinsed off every port and orifice rodded out, blown out with air and finally purged with oil then assembled, engine back in the machine and hooked up, all fluids in, the engine primed with oil till the gauge pegs out, all new filters bleed and start, run it up for a few hours, check for leaks, covers/guards back on return the machine to the customer, that is a simple engine to put together, it is not the best Cat made but they do a fair lot of hours between overhauls, we had some come in that had been re-bore twice and had to sleeve them, is there a hitching pole outside your engine rebuild shop there is some cowboys somewhere, great learning curve for you.
AJ
 
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Penn
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:46 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt Cat 3204 motor will not start on own power. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

40 thou, was standard pistons put into an oversize bore ?, that would be some rebuild shop, with those small diesels the best thing to do is have a remanufactured unit from Cat rather than trying to do them yourself, every second post on here is I rebuilt my engine, it will not start, it has no power, it's smoking it's heating, i rebuilt my shuttle the tractor wont move now, I replaced my brakes the wheels are locked etc etc that is the DIY syndrome, then coming on here like its a big big technical mystery when all it is is incompetence by whoever done the work, another thing is all those specifications and measurements, that is a sure sign of lack of experience and is only used by armchair engineers like a policeman using statue numbers to fool one about the law.
ED
 
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AJ.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:04 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt Cat 3204 motor will not start on own power. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

That's a great comparison, it reminds me way back in the sixties when I got stopped by a motor cycle cop and when I asked him why he was quoting this number and that number of the road traffic act and me been who I am said to him you seem to be very good at numbers and it was a pity he wasn't as good the day he was doing the shelf stacking test at the super market and did not get the job and had to go to the free clothing association for a job when he could get a job no where else, that's life.
AJ
 
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JamesB1991
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:56 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt Cat 3204 motor will not start on own power. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Old Magnet that was my thought as far as the compression being at 425 and not being enough to start the engine without some help. Cat doesn't have a spec. for compression on these motors, rather they have a leak down test which I did not perform. Was told by several Mechanics that anything above 300psi is enough. 300 being the absolute minimum as well as a hard start symptom in low ambient conditions. It had 40 psi while running and cranking but fell to 15 when off and sitting.
 
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JamesB1991
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:09 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt Cat 3204 motor will not start on own power. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

AJ as far as the motor goes the rebuild shop machined the block and pressed back in standard inserts. Everything in the motor is standard. The crank and cam were only polished and had all standard bearings installed. Number six rod journal had a massive scratch inline with the oil journal in the crank. As I said before a machinist came by and measured everything in the motor and said the measurements looked good. Other than that it honestly looks like the bearings, and all other damage, was due to a lack of lube condition or a massive contamination issue.
After installation I put oil in it, cut the fuel and cranked until it created oil pressure, then turned on the fuel to start after checking oil level. It was either a lack of lube or possibly shavings left in a journal somewhere after the machining prosses is what we're thinking. Don't know if they put enough assembly lube in it on assembly or not.
 
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JamesB1991
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:27 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt Cat 3204 motor will not start on own power. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Penn you are right on the Cat reman. We should've spent the extra money on purchasing one from Cat, because now we're paying for it. Also, changing subjects a little, Penn that's what doesn't make sense about the piston/bore clearance. We measured the bores and all 4 are right on target. The pistons are standard with a standard bore. The book doesn't give a skirt diameter, but from the readings we obtained on the piston skirts there's not a 40 thousandths gap anywhere. With pistons in we have a 40 thousandths play. We're not getting this confused with the piston articulation either. I'm missing something obviously.
I tore into it just so I would have some ammo on my end when it goes back to the rebuild shop, but couldn't find anything wrong on their end as far as wrong parts being installed. It looks like it was a lack of lube issue or massive contamination in the motor that caused this thing to die. Which in that case I know the rebuild shop is going to fight this telling me it was my fault for this condition. Looking back we should have done the rebuild ourselves. Due to time that's why we shopped this one out, but now it hasn't saved us any time rather it's taking all of it.
 
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JamesB1991
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:17 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt Cat 3204 motor will not start on own power. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Update on the motor. Sent the motor off to the rebuild center and they are going to put all new components in it and send it back. They did sate that there was no significant damage to the motor, so still doesn't explain why the motor wouldn't start. Sending the pump off to another supposedly reputable shop to see what the deal is with it. I'll keep you posted.
 
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JamesB1991
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt Cat 3204 motor will not start on own power. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

After a long and frustrating project the new motor is back, assembled, and installed. The fuel pump that we sent off to another shop is being finished up today and we had some good news for a change. The fuel pump had problems!! When the pump was undergoing it's initial rebuild the assembler sheared off pieces of aluminum from the aluminum tappets; these pieces then became trapped under the timing spacers. This is not uncommon I was told if one is not carful installing the tappets due to the ridge they acquire during their travel in the pump. The aluminum shavings that came off the tappets then became trapped under the timing shims. Fuel is then able to bypass through the gap they create and won't allow the pump to come up to pressure. This effect masks itself with rpm change. Hints why it would only start on ether. When rpms were gained from the shot of ether the pump was able to create enough fuel pressure to run, or get itself cycling fast enough to compensate the fuel loss internally. The higher the rpm the more the problem would become masked. They also found the governor spring guide damages which was causing the spring to hang up. Also on the pump which they found was that the low idle was set at 900rpm and high idle was set at 2800rpm!! We had this changed to 750rpm and 2100rpm.
Look forward to putting this pump in and firing it up.
 
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Nordic
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt Cat 3204 motor will not start on own power. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Glad to hear about the progress. It sounds like the current shop is far more qualified to work on injector pumps! I wonder if the first injector shop would own up to any of their mistakes? Looking forward to your start up report.
 
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derwen1959
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt Cat 3204 motor will not start on own power. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I have only just seen this , to read everything will
take some time !!! My first comment is what oil are
you using in engine?
 
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AJ.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:08 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt Cat 3204 motor will not start on own power. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Post the serial number so I can determine what injector pump you have with aluminium tappets, aluminium would be way to soft to be used for anything like a tappet, the housing of the injector pump may be aluminium but all the parts inside are usually the hardest of steel, but greed can change things.
AJ
 
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