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850 Stuck Clutch after Rebuild.


 
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LarryMaine
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:44 pm    Post subject: 850 Stuck Clutch after Rebuild. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

This is all so embarrassing. With engine rebuild done, I fixed the timing, and I have now replaced the rear main bearing cap seals, re-married the engine for the second time, and I fixed the main leak just fine. BUT and hopefully my final screw up, smoke was coming out of the timing cover hole, obviously clutch was burning with trans in neutral. After depressing the clutch pedal I can not get it into gear, they just grind. I went to the manual and properly adjusted the free travel play for the clutch pedal, no change at all. So, before I separate the engine for the third time, does anyone have any suggestions. Nothing available in the manual or YT archives. The 850 does not have the two clutch release springs, it just has the one spring wrapped around the bar in the clutch housing. And yes, I did replace the clutch pack and the disc, also the pilot bearing and throw out bearings, and I used the alignment tool. The engine remarried to the housing fairly easily, I did not have to force the engine in at all. All I can figure is the disc is in backwards, the spring is broken but it looked just fine prior to reassembly, or somehow I damaged the clutch fingers somehow? Anyway, anyone have any experience with a stuck clutch after a rebuild? Thanks again as always, this is all embarrassing enough as it is.
 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 850 Stuck Clutch after Rebuild. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-LarryMaine wrote:
(quoted from post at 18:44:44 06/13/21) This is all so embarrassing. With engine rebuild done, I fixed the timing, and I have now replaced the rear main bearing cap seals, re-married the engine for the second time, and I fixed the main leak just fine. BUT and hopefully my final screw up, smoke was coming out of the timing cover hole, obviously clutch was burning with trans in neutral. After depressing the clutch pedal I can not get it into gear, they just grind. I went to the manual and properly adjusted the free travel play for the clutch pedal, no change at all. So, before I separate the engine for the third time, does anyone have any suggestions. Nothing available in the manual or YT archives. The 850 does not have the two clutch release springs, it just has the one spring wrapped around the bar in the clutch housing. And yes, I did replace the clutch pack and the disc, also the pilot bearing and throw out bearings, and I used the alignment tool. The engine remarried to the housing fairly easily, I did not have to force the engine in at all. All I can figure is the disc is in backwards, the spring is broken but it looked just fine prior to reassembly, or somehow I damaged the clutch fingers somehow? Anyway, anyone have any experience with a stuck clutch after a rebuild? Thanks again as always, this is all embarrassing enough as it is.
I fail to see how it could be burning. If in neutral, then crankshaft, flywheel, pressure plate, clutch and transmission input shaft are all rotating together at same speed. How can that possibly "slip", make heat 'smoke' & 'burn'?
 
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LarryMaine
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 850 Stuck Clutch after Rebuild. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I have no idea, it was white smoke and it smelled like clutch. It was not oil. Since I can not get it into gear, I have to assume that the clutch is stuck or partially stuck. I have done nothing with the transmission. There has to be some explanation for this, the two have to be related somehow. I guess I will just have to open it up again and see what is going on. I just thought that I would not be the first to have this issue.
 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 850 Stuck Clutch after Rebuild. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-LarryMaine wrote:
(quoted from post at 19:15:32 06/13/21) I have no idea, it was white smoke and it smelled like clutch. It was not oil. Since I can not get it into gear, I have to assume that the clutch is stuck or partially stuck. I have done nothing with the transmission. There has to be some explanation for this, the two have to be related somehow. I guess I will just have to open it up again and see what is going on. I just thought that I would not be the first to have this issue.
Clutch installed backwards sure won't explain smoke, but can explain "stuck" failure to release
 
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showcrop
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:45 am    Post subject: Re: 850 Stuck Clutch after Rebuild. Reply to specific post Reply with quote



You say that you replaced the throwout bearingS. Did you mean to pluralize it? There is just one.
 
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LarryMaine
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 850 Stuck Clutch after Rebuild. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

No, just a typo. I am so angry at myself that my tieping is suffering as well. Yea, just one throw out bearing and just one pilot bearing, just on clutch pack and just one clutch disk, but apparently no brain. Separating the tractor again tomorrow. I have gone thru every archive posting, my blue manual, my thick ford shop manual, etc. and have not found any examples of my problem, so right now I am just hoping it is a backwards clutch and not a broken return spring or worse. Larry.
 
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Getnbetter
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:40 pm    Post subject: Re: 850 Stuck Clutch after Rebuild. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Interesting issue. Was the engine labored or anything while it was running/smoking? If the clutch was dragging and burning, you would think the engine would notice that drag? I second what JMOR said, if the tractor is in neutral the clutch and all those parts attached are stuck to the flywheel spinning along with it, nothing should be getting hot and smoking. Was it noisy?
I actually dont think you can put the clutch disk in backwards on these, at least the clutch kit I got for my 850 that's the case. It would be virtually impossible to put the pressure plate on if the disk were backwards. Although you and me both managed to put the rope seal in AND the neoprene seals in when doing the rear main (I have since fixed that on my tractor)so who's to say what we can/cant do.
Did you buy a new pressure plate? If so did you adjust the height of the fingers as described in the manual? Manual says make a template thing but I just used a square and ruler to check those measurements and then the distance it would be to the bearing when halves were mated again. With 7 pedal height and 1.5 play, it actually moves the bearing forward about .65 inches which is just right for it to meet the pressure plate fingers then press them only enough (about 1/2) to release the clutch disk but not so much as to then push the clutch disk back onto the flywheel with the backside of the fingers. That's what was happening on mine when I did not adjust the fingers during initial clutch job. I have since made that adjustment and it works great now.
I'm interested to hear what you find when you open it up.
 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:44 pm    Post subject: Re: 850 Stuck Clutch after Rebuild. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Getnbetter wrote:
(quoted from post at 20:40:51 06/14/21) Interesting issue. Was the engine labored or anything while it was running/smoking? If the clutch was dragging and burning, you would think the engine would notice that drag? I second what JMOR said, if the tractor is in neutral the clutch and all those parts attached are stuck to the flywheel spinning along with it, nothing should be getting hot and smoking. Was it noisy?
I actually dont think you can put the clutch disk in backwards on these, at least the clutch kit I got for my 850 that's the case. It would be virtually impossible to put the pressure plate on if the disk were backwards. Although you and me both managed to put the rope seal in AND the neoprene seals in when doing the rear main (I have since fixed that on my tractor)so who's to say what we can/cant do.
Did you buy a new pressure plate? If so did you adjust the height of the fingers as described in the manual? Manual says make a template thing but I just used a square and ruler to check those measurements and then the distance it would be to the bearing when halves were mated again. With 7 pedal height and 1.5 play, it actually moves the bearing forward about .65 inches which is just right for it to meet the pressure plate fingers then press them only enough (about 1/2) to release the clutch disk but not so much as to then push the clutch disk back onto the flywheel with the backside of the fingers. That's what was happening on mine when I did not adjust the fingers during initial clutch job. I have since made that adjustment and it works great now.
I'm interested to hear what you find when you open it up.
Getinbetter., I don't know if clutch can be installed backwards (& result in a problem) on his tractor, but I have such an experience under my belt on 60's vintage Chebby, sorry to say!
 
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Jim.UT
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 850 Stuck Clutch after Rebuild. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

New clutch? Do you have an operator manual? When I replaced the clutch in my 850 I couldn't even get the tractor back together without backing off the clutch pedal adjustment. All that extra clutch material was in the way. As the clutch wears and the pedal gets adjusted to compensate, it will leave you unable to release the clutch when you all at once put in a new clutch disk.

The operator manual details the clutch pedal height and freeplay adjustment. After verifying that everything inside is put together properly, go through the clutch pedal adjustments per the manual.
 
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showcrop
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 850 Stuck Clutch after Rebuild. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Jim.UT wrote:
(quoted from post at 16:34:00 06/15/21) New clutch? Do you have an operator manual? When I replaced the clutch in my 850 I couldn't even get the tractor back together without backing off the clutch pedal adjustment. All that extra clutch material was in the way. As the clutch wears and the pedal gets adjusted to compensate, it will leave you unable to release the clutch when you all at once put in a new clutch disk.

The operator manual details the clutch pedal height and freeplay adjustment. After verifying that everything inside is put together properly, go through the clutch pedal adjustments per the manual.



Jim, he already told us that he "properly adjusted the free travel play for the clutch pedal, no change at all".
 
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LarryMaine
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 850 Stuck Clutch after Rebuild. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Thanks for the post. After I posted my last time, I fell ill and was bed ridden for the past 5 days. I only saw the template diagram in the manual after I opened up the clutch this last time and saw the seized bearing. I am just recovering now, but I have ordered a new bearing, and also off ebay I ordered a replacement throw out bearing carrier and a release spring. Once they arrive in the mail, I will put it all back together. I have to replace the carrier because of the wear and grooving caused by the seized bearing. I will make the template this week and use it for the new installation. People sometimes do not realize the clutch mechanism is quite different on the 850 models and this is not really will shown in the manual, although it is visible in the parts manual. Some think the fingers are not adjustable, but of course they are, and everyone seems to have a different name for the Clutch Disk, Pressure Plate, etc. I am just talking about the replaceable disc that has the wearable riveted facings on it. I will get back to you once I get the new carrier and bearing in and we will see if the template shows the fingers were way out of whack or not, but the movement distances you give in your post are really useful. Thanks again for your help. It is frustrating because for some people these things just go so smoothly and easily, and then there are you and me who use rope seals over the oil drain slot. Take care, Larry.
 
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