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TO-20 hydraulic pump not working - ice damage appears li

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Rickoff
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 7:56 am    Post subject: TO-20 hydraulic pump not working - ice damage appears li Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Back in late October 2021 I connected my snowblower attachment to the 3-point hitch, and was able to raise it with the hydraulic lift. During the winter, the temperature dropped to zero and below here in Maine for nearly a straight 30 days, and when the first big snowstorm hit, I found that I could not move the shift lever into the engine start position. I was able to get the engine started by connecting an engine cranking switch across the starter terminals, but found that the hydraulic lift was inoperative. It seemed obvious that some amount of water had formed from condensation, mixed into the fluid, and had frozen, so I waited for the first day warm enough to melt the ice and drained all the fluid, replacing it with 6 gallons of fresh mineral oil. When I started opening the 3 drain plugs, water was the first thing to come out, and I would guess that there was about 2 quarts of water in all. After installing the fresh mineral oil, the lift still would not work, so it would seem that the freeze-up somehow damaged the hydraulic pump. The PTO shaft does engage and spin, but nothing else seems to be going on. Now that warmer weather has arrived, I of course want to repair the pump. I'm wondering who else on this forum may have run into the same issue, and what parts were needed for the repair, as I would want to be sure I have what is needed on hand before removing the pump. Thanks in advance for replies with suggestions.

This post was edited by Rickoff on 05/03/2022 at 09:07 am.

 
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Jim L WA
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: TO-20 hydraulic pump not working - ice damage appears li Reply to specific post Reply with quote

From what I read on the Ford 'N' forum, it's not uncommon (same basic pump). I would drop the pump out and inspect it to see what parts you may need.
Overhaul kits are available.
 
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Tom H.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: TO-20 hydraulic pump not working - ice damage appears li Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I agree with Jim. First, do you have a repair manual? If so follow procedures as described to drop the pump. If the casting broke( I have one
that did just that) you will have to find one. Then do a rebuild kit to bring it up to snuff. Email me I may be able to help with finding one
used.



Tom
 
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ArleninOr
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: TO-20 hydraulic pump not working - ice damage appears li Reply to specific post Reply with quote

If a pump from a Te-20 will fit I have one of those.
 
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shaeff
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 4:41 am    Post subject: Re: TO-20 hydraulic pump not working - ice damage appears li Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I'm not sure about your TO-20 pump, but when I bought my 35 Utility it had probably 2 gallons or more water in the case.

That water had frozen and literally blew the control valve right out of the hydraulic pump. I rebuilt the pump and it's been fine ever since. You might be able to drain it and use a borescope to see what's going on down in there, but if you have a helper or other equipment it's not too bad to pull the top cover and just dive into it.
 
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Jerry/MT
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 7:50 am    Post subject: Re: TO-20 hydraulic pump not working - ice damage appears li Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I would take off the side plates and make sure that the T shaped part of the control valve and was connected to the H
shaped control fork sockets and the control valve itself wasn't stuck. Ypu'll have to reach down into the oil to do this.
DO NOT do this with the engine running!

If all is well with the control valve connections, push and pull on the control valve itself. It pnly moves a little over
an inch. It should move freely.

next start the engine and connect the pto. UNDERNO CIRCUMSTANCE SHOULD YOU STICK YOUR HANDS INTO THE HYDRAULIC COMPARTMENT
WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING! Start the engine and observe the area about the pump. Is there any fluid coming out of the
corners of the pump. If so the pump gaskets are leaking. Move the lift lever up and down and see if the control linkage
moves the control valve. Report back on what you find.
 
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mhadavi
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: TO-20 hydraulic pump not working - ice damage appears li Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I had the same problem this winter and also live in Maine (Solon). Mine got resolved by heating the area through a side panel and melting the ice that was in the valve. Ended up changing the oil and all is working well.
Best of luck with your fix.
 
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Rickoff
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2022 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: TO-20 hydraulic pump not working - ice damage appears li Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. I do have a repair manual as well as a parts book. Jerry - your reference to the "side plates" would appear to be the round plates at either side of the "Center Housing" - the one on the right side containing the fluid dipstick, and the one on the left containing the PTO engagement lever. At the time of the freeze-up, after draining some of the fluid, I had removed the left side plate to see what was preventing the PTO lever from moving, and could see that there was a considerable amount of ice in the cavity. After draining as much fluid as possible, I used a handheld propane torch to melt the ice away. I never removed the right side cover, and I'll follow your suggestion on doing that to check the connections. That's quite possibly the reason why the lift won't operate. I can see that I'll have to drain at least some portion of fluid before removing the cover plate, or considerable oil spill would occur, since the full mark on the dipstick is about an inch above the bottom of the cover plate. What's more, the level showing on the dipstick is actually a half inch above the full mark after having put in the 6 gallons of fluid that is specified. I think I'll just go ahead and drain all the fluid so that I can better see exactly what's going on in there.

The view shown in figure 295, on page 157 of the repair manual, is not a very good one, and has some sort of tool obstructing the view so that I can't really see what would be the "T shaped part of the control valve" that should be "connected to the H-shaped control fork sockets." In looking at the Hydraulic pump image shown on page 146 of the parts manual, which I will show a partial image of herein, I'd assume that part #6 is the T-shaped control valve, and that part #14 is the fork, as that is the only part labeled as a "fork assembly." Is this understanding correct? I don't see anything in the diagram that appears to be H-shaped, and don't see what you mean by "H-shaped control fork sockets," so maybe I'm looking at the wrong parts diagram. Or, is there something that directly connects to the "T" (part #10 in the diagram) which is not shown in this view? I do see something called a "Fork assembly, hydraulic control" (part #25 and 26 in the parts book diagram on page 142, and a "stabilizer, fork" (part #34) which actually does look somewhat H-shaped. Is this what connects to the T in the other diagram?



CVPost-Jerry/MT wrote:
(quoted from post at 08:50:07 05/04/22) I would take off the side plates and make sure that the T shaped part of the control valve and was connected to the H
shaped control fork sockets and the control valve itself wasn't stuck. Ypu'll have to reach down into the oil to do this.
DO NOT do this with the engine running!

If all is well with the control valve connections, push and pull on the control valve itself. It pnly moves a little over
an inch. It should move freely.

next start the engine and connect the pto. UNDERNO CIRCUMSTANCE SHOULD YOU STICK YOUR HANDS INTO THE HYDRAULIC COMPARTMENT
WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING! Start the engine and observe the area about the pump. Is there any fluid coming out of the
corners of the pump. If so the pump gaskets are leaking. Move the lift lever up and down and see if the control linkage
moves the control valve. Report back on what you find.
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This post was edited by Rickoff on 05/11/2022 at 01:00 pm.

 
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Jim L WA
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2022 9:30 am    Post subject: Re: TO-20 hydraulic pump not working - ice damage appears li Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Rickoff, what you said about the oil level is very interesting. Last year, I replaced all the fluid in my TO-20. I assumed it took 5 gallons and poured that in. The oil level showed full on the dip stick and still does today. It was some time later that I stumbled across the spec. that said it took 6 gallons. I've been confused about that ever since.
I could have added a 6th gallon and forgot but sure don't remember doing that.

This post was edited by Jim L WA on 05/11/2022 at 10:31 am.

 
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Rickoff
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2022 10:28 am    Post subject: Re: TO-20 hydraulic pump not working - ice damage appears li Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yes, Jim, that is rather strange that the Ferguson specs would be wrong. I bought the mineral oil in three 2-gallon containers at the local Tractor Supply Company, and since the specs said 6 gallons, I dumped all of it in. Next time around I would dump 4 gallons, then keep checking the dipstick as I add more. I'd guess that 5 gallons probably is about right, as you say. Even if added only to the full mark, though, that would still allow oil to spill out if a side cover is removed, so if not draining all the oil before removing a side cover then it would be a good idea to perhaps drain at least a gallon, or maybe more.

I do see that, right on the dipstick itself, it says that the level should be to the full mark "with lift arms fully extended," which of course means all the way up. That should show a lower level than with the arms dropped down, and would explain why 5 gallons at rest would appear full, though I doubt that the hydraulic lift cylinder capacity would account for the need for a 6th gallon of fluid.

This post was edited by Rickoff on 05/14/2022 at 03:54 pm.

 
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Rickoff
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2022 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: TO-20 hydraulic pump not working - ice damage appears li Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Sounds as though you did pretty much the same as me, mhadavi, but got lucky. I hope that this is just a control linkage problem, but will rebuild the pump if need be. I think that a smart thing to do, for those of us living where it gets very cold in winter, would be to simply crack the drain plugs open just enough to drain off any accumulated water (without actually removing them) around early October. Any water in there would be the first thing to come out, since oil floats on top of water. If we do this each October it would prevent the problem we ran into, and the mineral oil would probably only need changing every 3 years or so. BTW, I'm in Dixmont, about 40 miles east from you.

This post was edited by Rickoff on 05/11/2022 at 01:16 pm.

 
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Rickoff
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 1:24 pm    Post subject: Re: TO-20 hydraulic pump not working - ice damage appears li Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Well, taking my own advice given in my previous post I prepared to drain the fluid by first cracking the hydraulic pump drain plug open just enough so that water started coming out, and caught that in a coffee tin. It looked to be about a half cup. Then I moved a 4 gallon drain pan beneath the plug and started draining. The fluid came out so fast that I was barely able to stop the flow before it reached the top of the pan, by re-inserting the plug. I probably should have drained the transmission first. Anyways, after draining the remaining fluid into another pan and removing the round side covers, I could see the control fork was indeed still attached to the control valve. Moving the control lever up and down, I could see that the control fork was definitely moving the control valve freely. So, looks as though the next step will be to disconnect the control linkage, remove the PTO shaft, and drop the pump for inspection.
 
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wjajr
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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 4:45 am    Post subject: Re: TO-20 hydraulic pump not working - ice damage appears li Reply to specific post Reply with quote


BTW, I'm in Dixmont.

I can see the Dixmont hills from my road in Eddington.

My To-30 sits out side all year, and I haven't tried to start it while below freezing. So far each spring the hydraulics have worked. Your story has prompted me to change the oil, and replace the gearshift rubber boot.
 
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Rickoff
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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: TO-20 hydraulic pump not working - ice damage appears li Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I've run into a bit of a stumbling block. According to page 148 of the repair manual, "After removing the four retaining cap screws, the PTO assembly should easily slide from the center housing." Well that does not appear to be the case. The manual goes on to say that, "if difficulty is encountered removing the shaft, this is an indication that the shaft is either bent or twisted." The shaft is definitely not bent, as there is zero runout at the exposed end of the shaft when the shaft is rotated. Now I'm wondering whether the shaft actually is twisted, as the repair manual suggests, or if there may be another reason why I can't withdraw the assembly.

The only likely contender, in my opinion, would be the 4-bolt retaining flange, which is referred to as "Cover, P.T.O. shaft" in the diagram on page 114 of the parts book. After removing the 4 bolts holding it in place, and finding that I could not withdraw the shaft assembly, I wondered if the flanged cover may have seized in place over time. I tapped all around the flange with a hammer hoping to free it up, but that didn't help, so I then attempted to rotate the flange slightly, to loosen it, by striking with a punch and hammer near one of the bolt holes. That did not cause any movement whatsoever, which seems to confirm my suspicion that the flange is seized. I was worried that striking the punch with more force could cause the flange to crack or break, so didn't attempt that.

In looking at the diagram on page 114 of the parts book, the flanged PTO shaft cover, part #8, appears to have a rounded surface just ahead of the flange, which would seat into the housing. This is a relatively poor representation, though, since figure 282 on page 148 of the repair manual shows that there is indeed a shiny rounded surface extending perhaps a half inch or less ahead of the flange, but that the largest portion of this extension is a smaller diameter, and in fact actually tapers to an even smaller diameter, as figure 287 shows. Since there is a gasket between the flange and the housing it bolts to, no seizing could occur between those surfaces, so the only logical contender would be the shiny surface seen ahead of the flange. If this surface had not seized then it seems to me that I should have been able to rotate the flange when I attempted to do that, because this would be a close fit, but not a pressed fit. Since we know that water was circulating with the fluid, this could quite likely have caused the shiny surface to have rusted enough to initiate a seizure.

Unless someone has a better idea to offer, I'll try heating the flange with a propane torch, and striking one of the flange corners again to see if I can turn the flange to free it up. If it still doesn't budge then perhaps I can apply a large pipe wrench to the external surface behind the flange and attempt using more substantial force.





This post was edited by Rickoff on 05/14/2022 at 12:02 pm.

 
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Jim L WA
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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: TO-20 hydraulic pump not working - ice damage appears li Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Rickoff, I haven't personally run into it, but it's not unheard of that the spline at the far end of the shaft gets twisted. However I think that in those cases the folks have gotten the shaft to move an inch or so. I would try to get a screw driver or something driven in between the flange and the housing.
keep us updated.
Not to keep you up at night, but if the spline is twisted, sometimes the only resort was to cut the shaft off just before it exits the pump.
 
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