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9N - Starts won't say running


 
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Matt O. Mich.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:40 pm    Post subject: 9N - Starts won't say running Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I was reading this FAQ on the 12V conversion link at the bottom of this page and ran across this quote...
"Q. Do I have to use the 12 volt coil? There is nothing wrong with my 6 volt coil and I prefer the original.

A. No. As with most automobiles manufactured in the late 50s and 60s, picking up a cheap resistor at the auto parts store will allow you to use the 6 volt coil. This will also be your easiest fix if you ever burn out the 12 volt coil. The 6 volt coil is readily available while the 12 volt version is less common. "

I recently did the 12v conversion on my "41 9N, but can"t keep it running for more than 3-5 minutes. When I bought the tractor it had a 12v battery, generator and "ceramic resister" and a 6v coil.... Should I be using the old 6v coil with the alt or the new 12v coil that came in the kit?
She will start fine, rev up pretty good, and run for a few minutes then sputters with a puff of black smoke and backfire, then die....won"t restart right away but after sitting for about 15 minutes, starts and does the same thing again.

Other note. I don"t believe it"s a fuel problem, because the gas will run out of the line before the elbow at the carb and out the drain at the botom of the carb til the tank is empty.
Thanks for all the help
Matt O.
 
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BillM (OH)
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 9N - Starts won't say running Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Sounds like Dell's "weak sister" ignition switch - try jumpering around it next time you get'er running. Could be bad condenser also - some are NFG right out of the box. Coils usually run considerably longer than 15 minutes before they give up.
 
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Matt O. Mich.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:54 pm    Post subject: Re: 9N - Starts won't say running Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Ignition switch, starter button are fairly new and ran fine over the last few months...???
 
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Dunk
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: 9N - Starts won't say running Reply to specific post Reply with quote

"run for a few minutes then sputters with a puff of black smoke and backfire, then die...."

Indicative of yer carb float/needle letting too much gas in fer whatever reason.

"black smoke and backfire" says too much fuel.
 
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BCnT
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: 9N - Starts won't say running Reply to specific post Reply with quote

sad fact is new parts aint worth a wet tinkers damn anymore...dont overlook checking them just just cause they're ''new''.
i been turnin wrenches for a living since the mid 60's and if i only had a penny for every ''new'' part that i returned for a good un.
 
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Tom from Bancroft
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:47 am    Post subject: Re: 9N - Starts won't say running Reply to specific post Reply with quote

If it started doing this as soon as you did the conversion, it makes me think that you ended up with a weaker spark. And maybe you have been running a little rich all along. Now with a weaker spark, a warm motor and rich condition, it floods itself out. Would it be possible to convert back, just to isolate if this is for sure the problem? Or maybe even pull a plug next time it quits and see if it's black or even sparking. Good luck to ya, I know how frustrating these old girls can be.
 
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ZANE
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:04 am    Post subject: Re: 9N - Starts won't say running Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Next time it acts up have a can of starting fluid on the tractor and spray a good shot down the intake of the air cleaner. Do not choke. Try to start it. If it starts right up on the starting fluid it is fuel problem. If not it is ignition.

Zane
 
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Bruce (VA)
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:32 am    Post subject: Re: 9N - Starts won't say running Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Do you have a 12v coil or a 6v coil? On your 7/6/07 post, you said it was a 12v coil. As you have figured out, a 6v coil in a 12v conversion requires more resistance in the circuit than the OEM ballast resistor. So, the first confirmation needed is the coil: 6v or 12v, and how do you know? If it is indeed a 6v coil, you need to add resistors.

Next, regarding the run time, my advice from 7/6/07 remains the same:

"You need to have a spark checker (an old plug works fine) & a 7/16 box end wrench in your hand when it stops running. Check first for spark & next for fuel by removing the bolt at the bottom of the carb bowl."

"If it does not have a spark, then you work upstream from the plugs to find the reason. Could be a bad ignition switch or coil. Other possibilities exist, but you need to figure out first if the problem is fuel or electrical. Just crank the engine w/ the key on & look at the spark plug you are using as a tester. What does the spark look like? Fat & blue is what's needed."
 
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Phil (NJ,Az,Sask)
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:40 am    Post subject: Re: 9N - Starts won't say running Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Matt O,
All ignition resistors are not EQUAL and Front Mount Coils will not Mix/follow Automotive Specifications.

The Rule of Thumb for a Front Mount Starts with the OEM Ballast Resistor. This is a PTC device that Limits current to the required 3 AMP max thermal load. This Protects your COIL!

A) The OEM Ballast is the Only Resistor required for OEM 6V coils operated on OEM 6 Volts. Those PPL that use Ceramic Devices as a substitute will suffer Under and/or Over Current.

B) The OEM Ballast is the Only Resistor required for 12V Coils operated on 12 Volt Systems, these have a "Pure" resistance value of 3.0 Ohms (-.5 to + .25) or dry rated @ 2.5 -3.25 ohms

C) The only 12V coil that does not use the OEM ballast is the 12V coil that has a "Pure" Resistive value of 4.0 Ohms @3 Amps

Automotive Ignition Resistors do NOT Operate or function the same as the original OEM Ballast. If you use these you will have UNDER and/or OVER current conditions. The Automotive industry uses both PTC (positive temperature coefficient), and NTC (negative Temperature coefficient), and Fixed resistive devices. These are designed to function with the side mount Coil (more than)> 4 amps

If you want to use an OEM 6 Volt coil on a 12 Volt system the OEM Ballast MUST have an additional resistor. This Resistor value can be an Automotive Type (fixed) of ~ 2.25 Ohms rated @25 watts or made from RAT Shack Resistors with Equivalent Wattage ratings. The challenge is meeting the Wattage rating. The solution may look Ugly ( 2 R’s in series or Parallel) but function is important

The conclusion: Use the OEM Ballast in ALL cases. If the OEM Ballast Burns out you will need to add Resistance but the OEM Ballast must be Part of the Circuit with only one exception.

I hope that Helps,

BTW: Measuring Coil resistance will depend on current(heat). The OEM 6V coil meaures .64 ohms (dry), .76 ohms @ 2 Amps, and .98 ohms @ 3Amps. The value to use is .98 or 1.0 Ohm
 
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Matt O. Mich.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:59 am    Post subject: Re: 9N - Starts won't say running Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The kit came with a 12v coil... Don't know for sure what was on the last one.
 
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Matt O. Mich.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:03 am    Post subject: Re: 9N - Starts won't say running Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Tom,
I would prefer not to revert to the old system if at all possible... Do you live in michigan?
 
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Tom from Bancroft
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: 9N - Starts won't say running Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yes Matt, good ole Bancroft Mi. Land of corn fields, bean fields, and wheat fields. Some of the guys on here really know their stuff, (I don't include myself in that group,) but guys like Bruce give good sound advice and definately worth listening to.
 
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Matt O. Mich.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: 9N - Starts won't say running Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Tom,
Amazingly I also live in bancroft MI... small world.
 
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Matt O. Mich.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:18 am    Post subject: Re: 9N - Starts won't say running Reply to specific post Reply with quote

More info...
I don't know that much electricity wise, but maybe this will help.
put a multimeter on the resister before trying to start it (cold) and with the key off, it read 1.3.... started the tractor ran for about 5 minutes, tested the resister again with key off and hot engine and it reads 1.0 Does that info help determine if the resister is heating up too much.?
 
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George Adamache
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: 9N - Starts won't say running Reply to specific post Reply with quote

your problem of engine quites after a few minutes and starts again after sitting for a few minutes sounds like points are not set properly and are not opening and closeing
 
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