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H60E transmission problems

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Elanier81
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: H60E transmission problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The machine does move slightly in forward and reverse in all 3 gears now. the trash was a myriad of things there was some gasket where someone had done a horrible shotty job on the suction screen filters previously. It look like they use silicone and got some in there. Mostly just grime. The Breather had lost its cap and there were literally pieces of twig and leaves stuck down in there I cleaned all that out but some could be in the gear pack for all I know. My brother is supposed to post a detailed post of all that we have done and found so far
 
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Emu
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Location: Bangor

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: H60E transmission problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I had a Michigan 125B that had a similar problem but it happened while I was loading with it,no foot brake ran up to the truck I was loading, pulled the reverser back to stop,no stop till it hit the truck burst the diesel tank with the front wheel,50 gallons of diesel on the floor,the machine lost drive,it sheared the splines on the output shaft of the reverser,tranny out to repair cost 1k plus in parts,the repair kit for the brake air valve was about $120 and took a couple of hours to fit,I won"t be driving it again without brakes, I hope the same has not happened to yours,I had to repair mine as that happened after I had the center pivot joint rebushed and pinned.
 
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fredfarkle
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:19 am    Post subject: Re: H60E transmission problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

New Poster Here.
I am Elanier81's brother and have been working with him on the H60 payloader.
Following are some clutch pack pressures. Although these are in a chart, they were taking with only one pressure gage, so all readings are actually one at a time. Also, I did not get all gear selection pressures on each clutch pack.
2nd clutch pack n2-0, r2-0,r3-180,f3-200,f1-0,f2-0
reverse clutch pack f3-220,n3-50,r3-190,r2-0,r1-0,f1-0,f2-0,
fwd clutch pack f1-0,f2-50,f3-0,r1-0,r2-50,r3-0,n1-0,n2-10,n3-0

Note that while reading the reverse clutch pack pressure, it reads high pressure when both reverse 3 (which it should) and forward 3 are selected. It seems to me the reverse clutch pack should read 0 when forward is selected.
 
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fredfarkle
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:22 am    Post subject: Re: H60E transmission problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I know the clutch pressure display is a mess. I tried to paste an excel chart and I couldn't properly. I then tried to set it up as a chart in the box, but when I previewed it, it was ran together.
 
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Jim.ME
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Location: western Maine

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:07 am    Post subject: Re: H60E transmission problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Take a photo of your chart and post that.
 
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fredfarkle
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: H60E transmission problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

here is the photo[img][/img]
 
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fredfarkle
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: H60E transmission problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

2nd try on the photo

 
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fredfarkle
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: H60E transmission problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

here is the recap of what all we have done.


Recap of work on the H60 payloader
1. Found the transmission filter installed incorrectly so that it bypassed and was the wrong filter. The spring was not installed on the bottom to keep the cartridge tight against the top. Installed it as properly as possible and ordered correct cartridge.
2. Found both suction screens COMPLETELY plugged. Realized the screen bypasses had to be opening, therefore trash was getting into the system.
3. Removed, disassembled and cleaned the following
a. Charging pump:no trash
b. Charging pump pressure regulator:no trash
c. Scheduling valve-no trash: but did not remove the scheduling valve throttling valve at this time. Found the accumulator spring broken into about 5 pieces. Thought we had found the problem
d. Control valve: no trash
 
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fredfarkle
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:52 pm    Post subject: Re: H60E transmission problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

part 2 of recap
. Reinstalled the new accumulator spring- no change. Read the pressure at the scheduling valve supply. Pressure was 250 in neutral, and dropped to about 180 when a gear was selected, but returned to approximately 250. Machine would still not run
5. Read pressure in torque converter- read about 45 psi where manual said the pressure should be 45-85 psi
6. Again pulled the scheduling and control valves and completely disassembled the scheduling valve. This time while removing the scheduling valve throttling valve, found 3 pieces of rubber in the valve. This made it extremely hard to remove (I thought I may be damaging the valve) and blocked several of the 4 flow holes. We knew we had it this time. While reinstalling the accumulator sleeve, it fell in (did not have to be forced at all) and that did not register with me at the time.
7. Put the pressure gage on the newly installed scheduling and control valve. Machine still did not go. But the control valve pressure would drop to 130-150 when 1st or 2nd gear was selected in forward or reverse and stay there. In 3rd it would drop and return to 220, but the machine would not move. It would strain in 3rd but not move.
8. Decided to read clutchpack pressures. They show both the forward and reverse clutch packs pressured in forward and reverse, which makes no sense. Clutch pack pressures are in a post above this one
 
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fredfarkle
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:54 pm    Post subject: Re: H60E transmission problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

part 3 of recap. it wouldn't let me post until I broke it down

9. To verify we had put he control valve back together properly, we removed it from the machine and replaced the scheduling valve with a piece of wood with a gasket. Since the 5 operating holes in the control valve go up and down at the same time, the plan was to block the 5 holes going to the scheduling valve and blow air into the oil inlet of the control valve. Then we would check that the proper holes were open. Did this and it passed all 9 possible gear positions. Then did it again while blocking the designated holes to ensure it was not leaking into another chamber. No leakage.
10. Possible future plans
a. Replace the oring in the scheduling valve accumulator to see if oil was bypassing and pressurizing the forward/reverse clutch pack which was not selected.
b. Replace the scheduling valve with a steel plate and totally bypass the scheduling valve. I saw a picture of an older Hough payloader and that is the way it was setup. There was a plate on top of the control valve with simply an oil inlet. It looks like to me that the scheduling valve is there to smooth the gear shifts. I don’t think it will hurt to run without it for a short test.
 
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AJ.
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Joined: 20 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:24 pm    Post subject: Re: H60E transmission problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

It certainly won't drive on the pressures posted,post the first readings before ye tampered with the valves,I would not block off any oil passages as there is a chance of cracking the casing it's cast,how many flows comes off the pump,if only one then there must be a priority valve to divide the flow,the flow would be divided and one flow lowered for the torque and the higher flow for clutch engagement,it is possible that the pump has two flows if so then there would be no need for a divider valve,first second and third gears are used for both forward and reverse,the direction has two gears forward and reverse,so there is five clutches in all,there has to be enough oil flow and pressure to engage two clutches for the machine to drive one direction and one speed clutch,I had a look at the Baldwin filter catalogue PT401-MPG is listed as the TC filter.
All I can add is good luck
AJ
 
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fredfarkle
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: H60E transmission problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

the clutch pack pressures posted are the only ones we took.
there are two charge pumps. One supplies lube oil to one of the clutch packs. the other charge pump pumps all oil through the oil filter. it then splits to a back pressure regulator, which maintains the 270-300 psi, and the other line goes to the control valve.
after the oil goes through the backpressure regulator, it flows to the torque convertor, where the pressure is maintained by another back pressure regulator set at 40-80 psi. oil then flows to the cooler and then to the other two clutchpacks lube oil circuits.
 
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fredfarkle
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:06 am    Post subject: Re: H60E transmission problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

We were not blocking the oil passages while machine was running. we did the test with air while the control valve was off the machine
 
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fredfarkle
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:30 pm    Post subject: update Reply to specific post Reply with quote

It has been a while, but here is the latest update.
First, the picture of the pressures I posted earlier is incorrect. The labels in the manual which shows the location of the pressure taps are incorrect.
We recorded some new pressures last week. We only had one pressure gage again. All of the pressures under "forward" were recorded and then the gage was moved to the "reverse" pressure tap and the pressures recorded.
Gear-----------Forward clutch pack----------reverse clutch pack
N1------------------------0----------------------------0
F1------------------------100-------------------------0
r1-------------------------0---------------------------100
n2------------------------0---------------------------0
f2------------------------140-------------------------0
r2------------------------0----------------------------110
n3------------------------0---------------------------0
f3------------------------240--------------------------0
r3------------------------0---------------------------225

These readings make more sense. We have purchased a total of 10 gages for our next trip (end of march) so we can record all of the pressure readings at the same time.
i will post the bulk readings when we get them
overall, the machine is trying to run a little more. this is after we replaced ALL orings in the sectional valve because they were bypassing oil
 
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