Yesterday's Tractor Co.
Shop Now View Cart
   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 9N,2N,8N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   Traditional YT Forum ViewClassic View   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile    Log inLog in 

Ignitor Electronic Ignition

Goto page 1, 2  Next

 
Post new topic    
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
chamsher
New User


Joined: 01 Dec 2018
Posts: 12


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:54 pm    Post subject: Ignitor Electronic Ignition Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Back again with continuing problems with a new ignitor electronic ignition installation. I bench tested the ignitor furnished with the original purchase of the system containing an ignitor, 4,000volt coil, a new distributor cap, a rotor and plate to hook the new coil wire to the distributor. I tested for problems including reinstalling the points back in the distributor with no problems. The 9N tractor ran good with the points back in it. I then run a test provided for by Pertronix to test the ignitor and the ignitor did not perform according to their test results indicating a bad ignitor. I called their toll free number and after doing some tests for them, they sent me another ignitor.

I installed the new ignitor and the engine still does not start and run. I get no sparks to the spark plugs. I'm getting power to the coil. With my DC tester on the positive and neg poles of the coil, I'm getting juice there. However, when I turn on the switch and check the coil to distributor wire with negative to battery I get continuous voltage with no fluctuation when I engage the starter. In other words, I'm getting continuous juice to the distributer but it is not being distributed to the plugs for some reason. This indicates that the spinning of the rotor is not getting juice to the plugs. I'm confused by this since the distributor cap is new and the rotor is new. I checked the rotor for proper installation and it is good. Also, the voltage going to the distributor appears to be no different than that going into the coil from the switch. I know that the distributor parts other than the ignitor and coil is working good since the tractor run good with the points installed. What am I missing other than my questions about the coil, that I have indicated above? And, if it is the coil; what test do I need to check it out further? If I had not already purchased this electronic ignition with no return, I would go back to the points since they were performing pretty good.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Steve@Advance
Tractor Guru


Joined: 12 Nov 2013
Posts: 12956


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Ignitor Electronic Ignition Reply to specific post Reply with quote

From what you are describing, you have 12v+ to the coil, continuous 12v on the (used to be) points side even when cranking the engine, no pulsing voltage, therefore no high voltage out of the coil, correct?

You did remove the condenser?

About all I can suggest is to get the distributor out on the bench, double check all the connections. Temporary it up to a battery, pos to the coil and Pertronix red lead, neg to the distributor case. Do what you have to do to temporary the coil connections so you can see what is going on. Rotate the distributor by hand and do your voltage tests.

If still no spark, leave everything laid out and ready, get customer service back on the phone and go through it again. I suspect there is an open connection somewhere between the trigger and the coil or the trigger is not grounded to the case.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
chamsher
New User


Joined: 01 Dec 2018
Posts: 12


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:29 am    Post subject: Re: Ignitor Electronic Ignition Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Thanks Steve, I will try that.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
deanostoybox
Regular


Joined: 06 Jun 2016
Posts: 172


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: Ignitor Electronic Ignition Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Helped a friend install one of those once. Did like you are describing. There was a "flashing" on one end of the magnet ring that prevented the ring from going down far enough on the distributor cam for the magnets to align properly with the Hall effect sensor in the module. After removing the "flashing" (it broke away cleanly and easily) and pushing the magnet ring down flush with the bottom of the distributor cam, it made spark. Something to check.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Indiana Ken
Long Time User


Joined: 10 May 2011
Posts: 1341


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:56 am    Post subject: Re: Ignitor Electronic Ignition Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-chamsher wrote:
(quoted from post at 18:54:27 12/28/1Cool
1) ".... I then run a test provided for by Pertronix to test the ignitor and the ignitor did not perform according to their test results indicating a bad ignitor. I called their toll free number and after doing some tests for them, they sent me another ignitor...."

2) ".... I'm getting power to the coil. With my DC tester on the positive and neg poles of the coil, I'm getting juice there...."

3) ".... However, when I turn on the switch and check the coil to distributor wire with negative to battery I get continuous voltage with no fluctuation when I engage the starter.

4) ".... In other words, I'm getting continuous juice to the distributor but it is not being distributed to the plugs for some reason. Also, the voltage going to the distributor appears to be no different than that going into the coil from the switch...."


I purchased a similar kit to run a round can coil on a front mount distributor. Mine requires converting the tractor to 12 volt negative ground and uses the Pertronix module to replace the breaker points. I assume your kit is also for 12 volt negative ground. I have not installed mine yet so I am most interested in what you find with your installation.

1a) You stated the test provided by Pertronix indicated your module was bad. Have you run that test on the replacement module? If so, what were the results?

2a) You stated you have your meter on the positive and negative terminals of the coil. Does that mean the positive lead of the meter is on the positive coil terminal and the negative lead of meter is on the negative terminal of the coil? If so, voltage there means the pertronix module is conducting to ground (similar to the points being closed). If the pertronix was not conducting you would read 0 volts.

3a) For this test you should have the positive meter lead on the negative terminal of the coil. The black wire of the Pertronix module should also be connected to this coil terminal. The negative meter lead should be connected to the metal case of the distributor (tractor ground). The negative terminal of the battery should be connected to tractor ground. As the starter cranks the engine the voltage at the negative terminal of the coil should cycle from 12 volts to 0 volts as the Pertronix model triggers, conducting and non-conducting.

4a) "Continuous juice" when connected as in 3a indicates the Pertronix module is not triggering. It could be a connection problem, magnetic problem (see other post) or a second bad module (unlikely.!

Good Luck
 
Back to top
View user's profile
RobCons
Long Time User


Joined: 08 Jan 2014
Posts: 695
Location: Central Alabama

Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:07 am    Post subject: Re: Ignitor Electronic Ignition Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Cant remeber the tractor your working on but I've got a Pertronix on a 4000 model. Its a 12v negative ground system. I have 12v come from the ignition switch connected to positve side of coil. Black wire from Pertronix also connects to positive side of coil. Red wire from Pertronix connects to negative side of coil. Points and condenser are removed from distributor. Pertronix attaches where the points did. Ring slips over the center post of distributor. Put dust cap, little clip, rotor button, and cap back on. Plug wires on in correct order and it should go.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
JMOR
Tractor Guru


Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 23422


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Ignitor Electronic Ignition Reply to specific post Reply with quote

RobCons wrote:
(quoted from post at 14:07:37 12/29/1Cool Cant remeber the tractor your working on but I've got a Pertronix on a 4000 model. Its a 12v negative ground system. I have 12v come from the ignition switch connected to positve side of coil. Black wire from Pertronix also connects to positive side of coil. Red wire from Pertronix connects to negative side of coil. Points and condenser are removed from distributor. Pertronix attaches where the points did. Ring slips over the center post of distributor. Put dust cap, little clip, rotor button, and cap back on. Plug wires on in correct order and it should go.
If I understand what you say, and it functions, then you must be red/black color blind. I think such post will only add to confusion.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
RobCons
Long Time User


Joined: 08 Jan 2014
Posts: 695
Location: Central Alabama

Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Ignitor Electronic Ignition Reply to specific post Reply with quote

You are correct on both points. I am color blind. I posted from memory before so went a checked. Black wire goes to negative, red goes to positive. I would post a picture but I have trouble with that task. Sorry.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
JMOR
Tractor Guru


Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 23422


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Ignitor Electronic Ignition Reply to specific post Reply with quote

RobCons wrote:
(quoted from post at 20:43:34 12/29/1Cool You are correct on both points. I am color blind. I posted from memory before so went a checked. Black wire goes to negative, red goes to positive. I would post a picture but I have trouble with that task. Sorry.
No apology needed..............we all have our moments. Just trying to clarify.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
901sos
Regular


Joined: 28 Dec 2015
Posts: 43


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Ignitor Electronic Ignition Reply to specific post Reply with quote

To the naysayers of the Pertronics Igniter electronic ignitions, I have a few of these kits that i have installed on different makes of tractors some of which are 10 plus years old & only had one go bad & i think that was self inflicted. I can tell you they are VERY sensitive to voltage. After haveing one fail trying to start it while battery charger was hooked up on boost i will NEVER AGAIN try to start or turn key on while charger or jumper cables are connected period!!! If battery is not strong enough to start i now make sure key is off & charge with jumper cables cables or charger for awhile then unhook them before trying to start again. (Just my experience & my opinion)
 
Back to top
View user's profile
chamsher
New User


Joined: 01 Dec 2018
Posts: 12


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Ignitor Electronic Ignition Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I appreciate your taking the time to help me with this problem.
I have taken my distributor off of the motor for bench testing and have performed several tests with no success or at least, I'm still in the dark on the solution to my problem, (no sparks to the plugs).
Indiana, I will go through the tests you suggested first.
1(a)Here is the test of Pertronix's on the exciter or Ignitor. Connect the Ignitor plate to the negative battery terminal. Connect the red ignitor wire to the battery positive terminal. Attach the black lead from the voltmeter to the ignitor black wire. Attach the red lead from the voltmeter to the ignitor red wire. Rotate the magnet sleeve in front of the module, the meter should fluctuate between battery voltage and O volts. A constant measurement indicates that the power transistor or hall cell may have failed.Results of my test: The voltmeter gave a constant power reading with no fluctuation.

2(a) What you said is what I did. Except I pointed out that I also had a reading by connecting the positive voltmeter to the center of the coil and the negative terminal of the coil and the result was a constant power reading even when I cranked the starter. I cranked the starter on both of the readings, voltmeter on positive and negative poles of the coil and voltmeter positive on center and negative on negative pole of the coil.
3(a) Results: I had a 0 reading on the voltmeter with no fluctuation.
4(a) As noted above, I had a 0 reading on the voltmeter.

Thanks for your comments and suggestions


deanostoybox: There does not appear to be any obstructions. The Ignitor plate that replaced the points plate fit down well allowing the ring holder to slide into grove well. Also, I had no problems with the points plate and the points in getting fire to the plugs. I even reinserted the points after I began to have problems with the electronic ignitor to check out my switch, connections and the motor started and run fine. Thanks for your suggestion.

Steve: The answer to the first question is, yes. There was no high voltage coming out of the coil and the voltage did not fluctuate when I cranked the starter.

The answer to your suggestion: I have tried rotating the distributer by hand plus various test including inserting a spark plug into the center of the coil by means of and spark tester with a plug and I touched the negative of the battery while cranking the starter and I did get one spark at the plug only once. I could never duplicate this again. The plug only spark one time not several times.
Thanks for your suggestions.

I appreciate each of you that have responded. If you do not have other suggestions, I will be talking with Pertronix about troubleshooting this problem or refunding my money. I'm sure confused.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Bob
Tractor Guru


Joined: 03 Jan 1998
Posts: 52846


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Ignitor Electronic Ignition Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-chamsher wrote:
(quoted from post at 16:56:18 12/31/1Cool I appreciate your taking the time to help me with this problem.
I have taken my distributor off of the motor for bench testing and have performed several tests with no success or at least, I'm still in the dark on the solution to my problem, (no sparks to the plugs).
Indiana, I will go through the tests you suggested first.
1(a)Here is the test of Pertronix's on the exciter or Ignitor. Connect the Ignitor plate to the negative battery terminal. Connect the red ignitor wire to the battery positive terminal. Attach the black lead from the voltmeter to the ignitor black wire. Attach the red lead from the voltmeter to the ignitor red wire. Rotate the magnet sleeve in front of the module, the meter should fluctuate between battery voltage and O volts. A constant measurement indicates that the power transistor or hall cell may have failed.Results of my test: The voltmeter gave a constant power reading with no fluctuation.

2(a) What you said is what I did. Except I pointed out that I also had a reading by connecting the positive voltmeter to the center of the coil and the negative terminal of the coil and the result was a constant power reading even when I cranked the starter. I cranked the starter on both of the readings, voltmeter on positive and negative poles of the coil and voltmeter positive on center and negative on negative pole of the coil.
3(a) Results: I had a 0 reading on the voltmeter with no fluctuation.
4(a) As noted above, I had a 0 reading on the voltmeter.

Thanks for your comments and suggestions


deanostoybox: There does not appear to be any obstructions. The Ignitor plate that replaced the points plate fit down well allowing the ring holder to slide into grove well. Also, I had no problems with the points plate and the points in getting fire to the plugs. I even reinserted the points after I began to have problems with the electronic ignitor to check out my switch, connections and the motor started and run fine. Thanks for your suggestion.

Steve: The answer to the first question is, yes. There was no high voltage coming out of the coil and the voltage did not fluctuate when I cranked the starter.

The answer to your suggestion: I have tried rotating the distributer by hand plus various test including inserting a spark plug into the center of the coil by means of and spark tester with a plug and I touched the negative of the battery while cranking the starter and I did get one spark at the plug only once. I could never duplicate this again. The plug only spark one time not several times.
Thanks for your suggestions.

I appreciate each of you that have responded. If you do not have other suggestions, I will be talking with Pertronix about troubleshooting this problem or refunding my money. I'm sure confused.


Best to keep you meter test lead away from the center terminal of the coil!

When you look closely at the little magnet ring, can you see the outline of the 4 little rectangular magnets that are covered with the translucent tape?

They are what triggers the module, and must pass in CLOSE proximity to the sensitive area of the module (where there's a Hall-effect transistor cleverly hidden), to bad they don't mark that spot!

Is the magnet ring CLOSE to the module, closer the better, so long as it doesn't physically touch.

Also, the "fore and aft" position of the magnet ring is critical, if for some reason the magnet ring is not where it's designed to be in relation to the hidden sensor, the sensor won't be triggered as the magnets pass.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Steve@Advance
Tractor Guru


Joined: 12 Nov 2013
Posts: 12956


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Ignitor Electronic Ignition Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Everything I have heard about Pertronix customer service has always been positive.

If they can't talk you through it, maybe you could send the unit, distributor, and coil to them, let them bench test it and get it working...

Can't hurt to ask.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
chamsher
New User


Joined: 01 Dec 2018
Posts: 12


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Ignitor Electronic Ignition Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Bob, thank you for your comment and suggestion. I'm completely in the dark with regard to the magnet ring and the 4 magnets. I have had several including a local fella talk about these magnets, but I have not followed through to find these magnets and study the problem that alignment could have on the firing of the ignitor.
I have now looked and thought about the potential for problems based on your comments. Are these magnets in the area of the cam that is uneven and caused the points to open and close when they were installed? If so, and I think I now see them. The ignitor module is set on two previously positioned screw studs which were in the ignitor plate supplied with the ignitor. While the magnets turn within approximately 1/4 plus inches of the ignitor. Without repositioning the screw studs, I could not move the magnets any closer to the ignitor. However, that leaves the other potential for problems of the "fore and aft" of these magnets.
As I was viewing the distributor I realized that the magnets could be moved a little higher because there was a little play in the up or down of the cam. Further inspection, revealed the bottom of the cam that feeds though the bottom of the distributor was allowing the centrifugal weights attached at the base of the cam to rub against the bottom of the distributor. Its possible that either I or someone has lost a washer that would probably fit between the centrifugal weights and the bottom of the distributor. The washer would not raise the magnet much but it does appear that it would be enough to align better with the ignitor. Therefore, I'm going to try that to see if it will correct the problem. I'll let you know whether or not this solves the problem.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
JMOR
Tractor Guru


Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 23422


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Ignitor Electronic Ignition Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I recall some Pertronix data specified a magnet to module clearance/gap of 0.060 inch or less, but not rubbing.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
:   
Post new topic    Yesterday's Tractors Forum Index -> Restoration and Repair Tips All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  

TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
Fast Shipping!  Most of our stocked parts ship within 24 hours (M-Th). We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our fast shipping, low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

YT Home  |  Forums

Modern View Forum powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters