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Brakes on 1855. something aint right?

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$$4toys
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:14 am    Post subject: Re: Brakes on 1855. something aint right? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

bison wrote:
(quoted from post at 16:25:06 01/11/19)
CVPost-tractorcedric wrote:
(quoted from post at 15:04:30 01/11/19) So are both pistons hitting the bull pinions? I must be looking at a different parts diagram than you. Part #10 is the friction disc bonded to the piston in the drawing I am looking at. I have tried to load the drawing I have and it won't load. It is at agcopartsbooks.com. I would sure like to help! 8zero1-55four-68eight6 Dennis


Yep, both piston were hitting the pinions but new brake discs solved the problem for now.
The as you call it.. the friction discs.. are in my case not bonded to the pistons. as for the part # I relied on the # Tractorderic posted but it could be #10,..I did not verify.

All the part #'s on the pinion,brake housing, brake parts and cover are the same as listed in the 1855 parts book I have.


Pretty sure you must have this information already, but it only takes a second to post, so if you don't, here are some spec's from my manual: Piston thickness 2-9/32",
adjusting plate thickness 0.589-0.599, 1755-1855 are the same, and have travel listed as 0.024 - 0.035.
In the assembly of the brake , "install separator plate with taper on separator inward". Does not give the thickness of the separator plate. The insulator plate on the piston is just supposed to bonded with Permatex in two places (180 apart) to retain its position.
 
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bison
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: Brakes on 1855. something aint right? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

$$4toys wrote:
(quoted from post at 07:14:16 01/12/19)
bison wrote:
(quoted from post at 16:25:06 01/11/19)
CVPost-tractorcedric wrote:
(quoted from post at 15:04:30 01/11/19) So are both pistons hitting the bull pinions? I must be looking at a different parts diagram than you. Part #10 is the friction disc bonded to the piston in the drawing I am looking at. I have tried to load the drawing I have and it won't load. It is at agcopartsbooks.com. I would sure like to help! 8zero1-55four-68eight6 Dennis


Yep, both piston were hitting the pinions but new brake discs solved the problem for now.
The as you call it.. the friction discs.. are in my case not bonded to the pistons. as for the part # I relied on the # Tractorderic posted but it could be #10,..I did not verify.

All the part #'s on the pinion,brake housing, brake parts and cover are the same as listed in the 1855 parts book I have.


Pretty sure you must have this information already, but it only takes a second to post, so if you don't, here are some spec's from my manual: Piston thickness 2-9/32",
adjusting plate thickness 0.589-0.599, 1755-1855 are the same, and have travel listed as 0.024 - 0.035.
In the assembly of the brake , "install separator plate with taper on separator inward". Does not give the thickness of the separator plate. The insulator plate on the piston is just supposed to bonded with Permatex in two places (180 apart) to retain its position.
Thanks for the info.
My ITC repair manual does not mention anything about piston/adjusting plate dimensions or travel nor about bonding of the insulator to the piston.
 
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$$4toys
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:45 am    Post subject: Re: Brakes on 1855. something aint right? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

bison wrote:
(quoted from post at 10:25:09 01/12/19)
$$4toys wrote:
(quoted from post at 07:14:16 01/12/19)
bison wrote:
(quoted from post at 16:25:06 01/11/19)
CVPost-tractorcedric wrote:
(quoted from post at 15:04:30 01/11/19) So are both pistons hitting the bull pinions? I must be looking at a different parts diagram than you. Part #10 is the friction disc bonded to the piston in the drawing I am looking at. I have tried to load the drawing I have and it won't load. It is at agcopartsbooks.com. I would sure like to help! 8zero1-55four-68eight6 Dennis


Yep, both piston were hitting the pinions but new brake discs solved the problem for now.
The as you call it.. the friction discs.. are in my case not bonded to the pistons. as for the part # I relied on the # Tractorderic posted but it could be #10,..I did not verify.

All the part #'s on the pinion,brake housing, brake parts and cover are the same as listed in the 1855 parts book I have.


Pretty sure you must have this information already, but it only takes a second to post, so if you don't, here are some spec's from my manual: Piston thickness 2-9/32",
adjusting plate thickness 0.589-0.599, 1755-1855 are the same, and have travel listed as 0.024 - 0.035.
In the assembly of the brake , "install separator plate with taper on separator inward". Does not give the thickness of the separator plate. The insulator plate on the piston is just supposed to bonded with Permatex in two places (180 apart) to retain its position.
Thanks for the info.
My ITC repair manual does not mention anything about piston/adjusting plate dimensions or travel nor about bonding of the insulator to the piston.


I have had my 1955, and a neighbors 2-105 apart, granted they are triple disc, but it seems to me that the adjuster plate was extended out further, not recessed as much in the housing as your picture depicts. I tried to find a dimension from the inner most disc wear area to the housing external face, (cover bolt surface), but I cannot find this anywhere. IMO it has to be the total thickness that is short, disc's, separator and adjuster. The insulator disc is a non-wear item. I could not find a thickness on the disc's either.
 
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bison
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: Brakes on 1855. something aint right? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The pic shows the brake parts including the adjuster plate installed in the housing without the springs behind it( for measuring purpose), with springs installed the adjuster plate is protruding past the face of the housing.
Combined wear in housing and separator and adjuster plate is as far as I can determine it is less than 1/16"
 
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$$4toys
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Brakes on 1855. something aint right? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

bison wrote:
(quoted from post at 12:03:53 01/12/19) The pic shows the brake parts including the adjuster plate installed in the housing without the springs behind it( for measuring purpose), with springs installed the adjuster plate is protruding past the face of the housing.
Combined wear in housing and separator and adjuster plate is as far as I can determine it is less than 1/16"


This was like this when you took it apart, correct? I see in your post you were in the rear end, but since that time, you have not used it, correct? Did you have the support housings off, or better yet, did anyone before you have them off? Are the shims between the main case and the support housings the same as it was from factory? They are very stringent on this in the manual, so as not to change that dimension. When you think about this, it can only be that the housing shim to main frame was messed with, and does not have the correct install relationship to the shaft end, or the inner disc has worn away material from the housing. I would check dimensions of all of your new wear parts, if after market. If the are, maybe someone you know can give those dimensions from factory parts, you just never know.
 
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bison
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Brakes on 1855. something aint right? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yes it was like that when I tore into it and no I have not used it since. The tractor is getting a major overhaul front to back top to bottom. I am the first one to get into the tranny/rear end since it came out of factory..I had the transmission, crown and pinion ,bull pinions and bull gears and the PTO unit all apart
I replaced the crown and pinion and the 6 side gears.The bull pinions i swapped from side to side and the bull gears are turned around.
I reset the differential end play and pinion backlash as per manual and as indicated on the crown. Shim packs are the same each side as before but I removed one thin shim from each side to get the correct side play.
The old bull pinion bearings went back in but the pinion driving the crown got new bearings.

As for the brake wear parts, it does not matter at this point If the piston only has 3/16' travel from fully retracted to hitting the bull pinion when every part would be renewed there would still be only 3/16' of travel and that can't be changed unless I grind the bull pinions shorter or machine the piston faces deeper,...neither one I feel like doing.
 
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$$4toys
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:40 am    Post subject: Re: Brakes on 1855. something aint right? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

bison wrote:
(quoted from post at 16:23:12 01/12/19) Yes it was like that when I tore into it and no I have not used it since. The tractor is getting a major overhaul front to back top to bottom. I am the first one to get into the tranny/rear end since it came out of factory..I had the transmission, crown and pinion ,bull pinions and bull gears and the PTO unit all apart
I replaced the crown and pinion and the 6 side gears.The bull pinions i swapped from side to side and the bull gears are turned around.
I reset the differential end play and pinion backlash as per manual and as indicated on the crown. Shim packs are the same each side as before but I removed one thin shim from each side to get the correct side play.
The old bull pinion bearings went back in but the pinion driving the crown got new bearings.

As for the brake wear parts, it does not matter at this point If the piston only has 3/16' travel from fully retracted to hitting the bull pinion when every part would be renewed there would still be only 3/16' of travel and that can't be changed unless I grind the bull pinions shorter or machine the piston faces deeper,...neither one I feel like doing.


I seriously doubt it came from factory with this issue. Something wore and failed which allowed the shaft to move outward, or someone had it apart. On the inside you have a thrust washer, thrust bearing and support bearing. The pinion shaft is retained in position between the outer bearing and the thrust bearing at the differential. The outer bearing is the one item that keeps the shaft from working out to toward the brake piston. Is it possible, that someone had this housing off, and replaced the outer bearing? There are different bearings for different housings. For example,if you look at the two (2) Timkin's that are listed, the inner bore for the race are the same, but the width is .625 different. The outer match to this race, has a larger outer bore, so it would not work. (cad drawings for Timken are online) Is it "possible" that someone did not notice this in this tractors previous life and mismatched a bearing and race? Milling the brake piston or grinding the shaft does not seem like it going to fix the root cause, and IMO it will show up some day.
 
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:02 am    Post subject: Re: Brakes on 1855. something aint right? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

$$4toys wrote:
(quoted from post at 07:40:04 01/13/19)
bison wrote:
(quoted from post at 16:23:12 01/12/19) Yes it was like that when I tore into it and no I have not used it since. The tractor is getting a major overhaul front to back top to bottom. I am the first one to get into the tranny/rear end since it came out of factory..I had the transmission, crown and pinion ,bull pinions and bull gears and the PTO unit all apart
I replaced the crown and pinion and the 6 side gears.The bull pinions i swapped from side to side and the bull gears are turned around.
I reset the differential end play and pinion backlash as per manual and as indicated on the crown. Shim packs are the same each side as before but I removed one thin shim from each side to get the correct side play.
The old bull pinion bearings went back in but the pinion driving the crown got new bearings.

As for the brake wear parts, it does not matter at this point If the piston only has 3/16' travel from fully retracted to hitting the bull pinion when every part would be renewed there would still be only 3/16' of travel and that can't be changed unless I grind the bull pinions shorter or machine the piston faces deeper,...neither one I feel like doing.


I seriously doubt it came from factory with this issue. Something wore and failed which allowed the shaft to move outward, or someone had it apart. On the inside you have a thrust washer, thrust bearing and support bearing. The pinion shaft is retained in position between the outer bearing and the thrust bearing at the differential. The outer bearing is the one item that keeps the shaft from working out to toward the brake piston. Is it possible, that someone had this housing off, and replaced the outer bearing? There are different bearings for different housings. For example,if you look at the two (2) Timkin's that are listed, the inner bore for the race are the same, but the width is .625 different. The outer match to this race, has a larger outer bore, so it would not work. (cad drawings for Timken are online) Is it "possible" that someone did not notice this in this tractors previous life and mismatched a bearing and race? Milling the brake piston or grinding the shaft does not seem like it going to fix the root cause, and IMO it will show up some day.



AFAIAC this setup is all factory,..been running like this for 45 years/7000 hrs, never had an issue,..Just had poor brakes for years. nobody been in it but me since it came off the assembly line.nothing appears mis matched, all parts are installed and adjusted correctly.

Would be nice to know what other 1855's measure between brake housing face and end of pinion.
 
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$$4toys
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:47 am    Post subject: Re: Brakes on 1855. something aint right? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

bison wrote:
(quoted from post at 11:02:33 01/13/19)
$$4toys wrote:
(quoted from post at 07:40:04 01/13/19)
bison wrote:
(quoted from post at 16:23:12 01/12/19) Yes it was like that when I tore into it and no I have not used it since. The tractor is getting a major overhaul front to back top to bottom. I am the first one to get into the tranny/rear end since it came out of factory..I had the transmission, crown and pinion ,bull pinions and bull gears and the PTO unit all apart
I replaced the crown and pinion and the 6 side gears.The bull pinions i swapped from side to side and the bull gears are turned around.
I reset the differential end play and pinion backlash as per manual and as indicated on the crown. Shim packs are the same each side as before but I removed one thin shim from each side to get the correct side play.
The old bull pinion bearings went back in but the pinion driving the crown got new bearings.

As for the brake wear parts, it does not matter at this point If the piston only has 3/16' travel from fully retracted to hitting the bull pinion when every part would be renewed there would still be only 3/16' of travel and that can't be changed unless I grind the bull pinions shorter or machine the piston faces deeper,...neither one I feel like doing.


I seriously doubt it came from factory with this issue. Something wore and failed which allowed the shaft to move outward, or someone had it apart. On the inside you have a thrust washer, thrust bearing and support bearing. The pinion shaft is retained in position between the outer bearing and the thrust bearing at the differential. The outer bearing is the one item that keeps the shaft from working out to toward the brake piston. Is it possible, that someone had this housing off, and replaced the outer bearing? There are different bearings for different housings. For example,if you look at the two (2) Timkin's that are listed, the inner bore for the race are the same, but the width is .625 different. The outer match to this race, has a larger outer bore, so it would not work. (cad drawings for Timken are online) Is it "possible" that someone did not notice this in this tractors previous life and mismatched a bearing and race? Milling the brake piston or grinding the shaft does not seem like it going to fix the root cause, and IMO it will show up some day.



AFAIAC this setup is all factory,..been running like this for 45 years/7000 hrs, never had an issue,..Just had poor brakes for years. nobody been in it but me since it came off the assembly line.nothing appears mis matched, all parts are installed and adjusted correctly.

Would be nice to know what other 1855's measure between brake housing face and end of pinion.



Curious as to what you ever found or did to remedy this issue? Were you ever able to find that measurement?
 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Brakes on 1855. something aint right? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Nope. I bolted it to together the way it was.
I just have to check more often how much the discs wear with use.
Maybe it wears much less than I think it will.
 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Brakes on 1855. something aint right? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

quote="bison"](reply to post at 16:27:28 02/04/19) [/quote]
Not sure if it was possible, but could the tractor have been assembled with 1955 bull pinions? They have longer splines for the triple disc brakes, been too long since I was close to either tractor, splines only need to extend slightly beyond the hub of the brake discs. hope you find a solution.
 
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