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Ford 4500

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mikewood869
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:28 pm    Post subject: Ford 4500 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Bought a Ford 4500 FEL and backhoe with torque converter, with some issues. So far, we found; that the power steering is hard to turn (harder to turn that a ford 8n with a loader with stuff in the loader in). Would there be a reservoir or something for the power steering? I didn’t see one. One of the lines going to the backhoe are junk, the front two dump cylinder leaks a little, and something in the torque converter is leaking. The tractor starts up hard in the cold (goes through ether fluid, but not half can) From what it seems, the tractor needs a block heater to start easier (our Ford 6610 has a block heater and that started today when it was 17 degrees f) and is it possible to install a block heater (I would rather not use ether)? When we first tried to move the tractor onto the trailer, the tractor wouldn't move, only the loader and the backhoe worked. Would this be caused because there wasn't enough hydraulic fluid or because the temperature is too cold (the tractor was sitting outside, it was 25 degrees f when it was sitting there) and could have the hydro fluid jelled or too thick? I'm guess the wrong hydraulic fluid had been used in hydraulic system since the last fluid change or before that. What was the in hydro system is TSC 303 (whatever it’s called) and it looks milky (when I watched the new hydro fluid going in, the 303 looked milky then like new hydro fluid). I'm planning on changing the hydro fluid to the traveller universal hydraulic fluid (134d type fluid). The tractor uses 1 to 2 gallons an hour from what I'm told from the old owner (before getting it on the trailer, we added 3 gallons of the 303 to it). I couldn't check the level because the plug was stuck (and still is). I do have the service books and the owner manual. The tractor ended up being 23 ft long and 6 inches under 8 ft. Before we bought the tractor, we forgot to check radiator fluid or bubbling or anything, the fluid was a little low.
 
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mikewood869
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 4500 Reply to specific post Reply with quote






 
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mikewood869
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 4500 Reply to specific post Reply with quote










 
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mikewood869
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 4500 Reply to specific post Reply with quote









It also seems like we are having a fuel issue, the tractor kept stalling, were guessing that there might be water in the fuel tank and in the lines. Supposedly there is year or at least 8 month old fuel in the tank. There was also one of those lock fuel caps which we had to pry off. It seems like the fuel system was changed to gravity system, hence the the John Deere fuel filter. Tomorrow we'll be working on the tractor to see if there is more issues
 
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mikewood869
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 4500 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I was told the tractor was made in 1969, but I have no clue.
 
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shaun wallace
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 4500 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

that year p/s oil was still supplied from loader hyd system. It is checked under lid on nose, dipstick/breather. Worn linkage will make hard to steer one direction and easy the other.
 
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Sean in PA
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 4500 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

mikewood869 wrote:
(quoted from post at 23:52:11 01/12/19) I was told the tractor was made in 1969, but I have no clue.


I can't see the last character in the Unit number, but 9B5 at the beginning means it was made on February 5 1969.

Quote:
It seems like the fuel system was changed to gravity system, hence the the John Deere fuel filter.


The diesels didn't have a mechanical fuel pump up on the front of the engine like the gassers. There is a transfer pump built into the rear of the injector pump where the fuel line from the filter enters.
 
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JF in MI
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:28 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 4500 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Wow! Looks and sounds exactly like my 4500 when I got it. Mine still doesn't like to start in the cold (even after a new thermostart plug) so that's why I put a block
heater on it and it works fine. I understand they are the high compression type so better off without starting fluid.
Mine didn't like to go in gear but a new transmission filter worked wonders. My trans also leaks near the torque converter but I don't think it's the converter seal. I
think it's the forward/reverse selector valve 'O' rings.
Aahh, the power steering; great when it works, nightmare when it doesn't. Mine didn't work when I first got it either. Pulled the pump off and found that the drive gear
key, on the shaft, had sheared letting the gear spin and being only a matter of time before it fell off into the rest of the works. There is also a "cross valve" in the
pump that regulates the pressure and if debris gets into it can get stuck in the open position. This brings me to the hydraulic system (the PS feeds from it). I drained
out the whole (something like 15 or more gallons) of fluid and let it sit for about 4 months. All the water settled to the bottom and O poured the still usable oil off the
top (may have to do that a few times over years). The filter system is poorly designed and here's why; The big filter, in the nose in the hydraulic tank, is spring loaded
so when the fluid is cold the suction pressure pulls down a flap on top to let the fluid pass until it warms up. Problem is that the return line dump (in the tank) points
right at that flap and all the garbage bypasses the filter and gets stuck in and collapses the screen filter at the bottom of the tank. You'll have to remove the lower
tank hose, remove the flange and clean the screen. I got tired of doing this even with a new filter so I drilled another hole in the filter spring shaft and installed a
new pin farther up to substantially increase the relief flap pressure. I also riveted a piece of sheet metal on the top of the filter top cover to divert the returning
hydraulic fluid to the sides of the filter rather than at the flap opening. No more clogged screen issues after that.
Now, as for the dump cylinders; mine had an internal leak requiring rebuild. My only advise is that when you knock the pin out of the front shaft (holding it to the
loader) don't have your hand under the cylinder to support/hold it up. If you do you will experience the type of pain you will remember for the rest of your life when it
drops and smashes your fingers against the loader frame.
Don't forget the 4 lever to 2 modification for the 'hoe. Those 4500s are powerful machines.
 
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Destroked 450
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:05 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 4500 Reply to specific post Reply with quote


FEL and backhoe hyd system is separate from the transmission and torque convertor although they use the same type of oil.
Power steering on that year gets it's oil for the FEL/BH oil tank built into the from grill, dip stick, fill and filter are under the front flap.
The 4500 has a steering cylinder and control valve in the front axle bolster similar to ones on the early 5000's, worn or frozen linkage can cause hard steering one or both directions, this needs to be addressed before much use, they broke the yoke in the steering sector on mine forcing the steering.
The fuel system on these tractors is not gravity flow, there a small transfer pump located in the back of the injection pump with a one way check valve under the fuel line fitting.
Can't believe someone would replace a low cost CAV filer setup with that over priced JD filter system.
Pics don't show and I'm not sure when Ford changed from screw in core plugs to drive in soft plugs, if your engine has drive in soft plugs a block heater can easily be added, if it has screw in plugs you'll need to look at a inline heater.
Not familiar with the torque convertor trans, my 69 4500 has 6x4 manual reverser.

JF in Mi: The filter in the oil tank is a return filter and is not opened by suction, it's forced open by returning oil when the filter is stopped up, oil is contaminated thus plugging up the filter or the wrong oil is being used that is to thick to properly flow thru the filter.
The filter will always bypass in cold weather until the oil becomes warm enough to flow thru the filter.
Modifying the filter to force oil thru it can result in a exploded filter and lots of filter media floating around in the oil tank to stop up the suction screen.
Once a hyd system becomes contaminated it takes a few oil changes, filter changes and suction screen cleanings before it's clean enough not to give problems.
 
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mikewood869
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:26 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 4500 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

So far all we did to the tractor was add a jug of antifreeze and drain the fuel tank. It was a wonder the tractor ran, we got 6 gallons of water out of the system. We broke the fuel filter in the process and we are in the process of looking for a fuel filter and housing since Klems is closed. We ended up having to use the torpedo header to get the water out (even if the water/ fuel wasn't frozen, the heat made it a lot easier to remove).
 
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JF in MI
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:58 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 4500 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

All I can say is that since tightening up the spring and making a "diverter" for the return oil I haven't had any clogged screen issues in the last 10 years of pretty good
use.
 
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mikewood869
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 4500 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Those three lines on meh the fuel filter, are they; fuel in, return line from injections and line going to injector pump? If so , could I just use a “t” fitting (fuel line, then return line, then going to injection pump with some kind of filter)?
 
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mikewood869
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 4500 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

We ended up bypassing the fuel filter and installing the "t" fitting. and adding 5 gallons of month old fuel. After warming up the engine block with the heater and starting up the tractor on starting fluid, the tractor started to run good, then we took the tractor for a test run (the tranny fluid was warm from the heater being near the fuel of a hour). The tractor died in the street and we got the tractor back near the driveway using starting fluid all the way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZXXna5P8Ig

With the loader and the hoe up, we used the 6610 to get the tractor out of the way (the 6610 had a little trouble to move the 4500).
We then got the tractor started and the tractor started to run ruff for some reason. I'm guessing that this is because there is water in the lines (when fuel stopped coming out of the fuel stop, there might have been a inch of what ever was in there).

When we unfroze the fuel filter


Then the tractor started to run longer then the tractor would die kind of slowly (by the time I got over to film was 5 minutes.

Today I also bought a new fuel cap for the tractor, so we though that the tank was running out of air (when we bought a new fuel cap for the 6610, the suction would make a complete seal and stall the tractor. We then forgot about the cap and bent the cap or something, so it's tight a little) and we took the cap off and we saw liquid coming of the tube at the top. I though that one of the line on the fuel filter was a return, but I guess not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n-AaZxnzLc

The stream


Before we stopped for the night we got the tractor to run smother kind of. The tractor would run for a bit, then slowly, slowly die then stall out. You could hear the tractor slowly quieting down.

Either than that, we just started to try the things that work and that was fun. We didn't find the dipstick in the nose for the hydraulics. Tomorrow I'm going to need to order a fuel filter assembly and filter.

There is a filter by the foot rest on the left hand side. What is that? Still have no clue where the hydraulic filter is located.
 
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JF in MI
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 4500 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Trans filter down by your foot. Hydraulic filter is under the big door above where the radiator is. That's where the hydraulic dip stick is. Filter is kind of like a shop vac
filter.
 
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mikewood869
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 4500 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Issues with pictures and links, redo post... Sorry if the post is mssing info

When we unfroze the fuel filter at the beginning of the day.


We ended up bypassing the fuel filter and installing the "t" fitting. and adding 5 gallons of month old fuel. After warming up the engine block with the heater and starting up the tractor on starting fluid, the tractor started to run good, then we took the tractor for a test run (the tranny fluid was warm from the heater being near the fuel of a hour). The tractor died in the street and we got the tractor back near the driveway using starting fluid all the way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZXXna5P8Ig

With the loader and the hoe up, we used the 6610 to get the tractor out of the way (the 6610 had a little trouble to move the 4500).
We then got the tractor started and the tractor started to run ruff for some reason. I'm guessing that this is because there is water in the lines (when fuel stopped coming out of the fuel stop, there might have been a inch of what ever was in there).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDGToo-RUF4

When the tractor started to clear up a little
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5FKK7mw8EM
I'm guessing water or something maybe.

Before we stopped for the night we got the tractor to run smother kind of. The tractor would run for a bit, then slowly, slowly die then stall out. You could hear the tractor slowly quieting down.

In the end when we were trying to see how long the tractor would run, you could hear the tractor slowly, slowly quite down till the tractor stopped. I'll be ordering fuel filter housing and fuel filter tomorrow.

Either than that, we just started to try the things that work on the tractor and that was fun before the tractor died. We didn't find the dipstick in the nose for the hydraulics. Tomorrow I'm going to need to order a fuel filter assembly and filter.

There is a filter by the foot rest on the left hand side. What is that? Still have no clue where the hydraulic filter is located.
 
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