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504U_D188: Per PO = spewing out green coolant from exhaust

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amsinator
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:35 am    Post subject: 504U_D188: Per PO = spewing out green coolant from exhaust Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Having recently acquired a 504 utility w/ D188 due to exhaust "spewing out green coolant" after trying to start by past owner when tractor sat through the "Record Term (2 weeks) of below freezing temps of 17F-25 F degrees F" last January 2018. Since that time PO also found dipstick tube filled to top with what looks like water, which I assume is coolant.

Tractor has only cost me the time/gas to trailer to my shop. I am in process of tearing down to determine failure and value, before I get past point of no return.

It is understood the importance of anti-freeze protection levels. I can only assume, it had antifreeze in tractor by spewing out distinguishable green coolant, but freeze protection is unknown/mute point for now.

Does the D188 have a reputation of pushing out water jacket (freeze plugs) in certain areas, such as under valve cover gasket?

I am thinking head gasket let go, since coolant was blown out exhaust upon last cranking attempt and filling crankcase with coolant/water by visual inspection. Trying to work on it Today, but presently 25 degree F, lots of layers to be able to work outside.

Tractor got quick sand blast and paint job, BEFORE I acquired it.
Nothing spectacular. I do understand this could also be a pig w/ lipstick.

Thank You for any thoughts or experiences w/ this model.








 
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Janicholson
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:06 am    Post subject: Re: 504U_D188: Per PO = spewing out green coolant from exha Reply to specific post Reply with quote

For free, it is marvelous. If no shop/garage, spring is coming so tarp it down and wait, or find a place to put it.
A complete teardown (in frame) will tell the story of how much it will take to make it well. If $3000, it is still
a good utility tractor with all modern functionality and will be better than that money spent on a new lawn tractor
by a factor of 5. One gripe I have with the reluctance to put time in a machine is its resale numbers. If the
reason for ownership is resale, no doubt it is a place to throw money. if it is to use, it is very cheap high value
equipment. Jim
 
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fastfarmall
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:11 am    Post subject: Re: 504U_D188: Per PO = spewing out green coolant from exha Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Well said, Jim
 
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Cmore
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: 504U_D188: Per PO = spewing out green coolant from exha Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Question,
Does the 504 have a TA???
 
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Janicholson
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: 504U_D188: Per PO = spewing out green coolant from exha Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yes it does % speed W/TA Jim
 
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Janicholson
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: 504U_D188: Per PO = spewing out green coolant from exha Reply to specific post Reply with quote

5 Speed W/TA
 
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amsinator
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 504U_D188: Per PO = spewing out green coolant from exha Reply to specific post Reply with quote

To the best of my knowledge, I would say no.
How do I tell?
There is a lever to the left side by seat, that seems to be linked to the PTO output housing?
There is not a lever in front on left side, if that is the normal TA operation location?

More Pics. Decided to remove head. #2 Cylinder fire ring broken, but #1 and #3 cylinders were rusted the worse of the four.














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rustred
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:49 pm    Post subject: Re: 504U_D188: Per PO = spewing out green coolant from exha Reply to specific post Reply with quote

lets see the head. are u sure the coolant wasn't poured down the exhaust pipe instead of rad? that fire ring wont do that. something had to freeze and broke there. you got a cat in the bag there.
 
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amsinator
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:14 am    Post subject: Re: 504U_D188: Per PO = spewing out green coolant from exha Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yeah, I agree with the "must have poured coolant down the exhaust", cause it sure looks like that?
I hope to evaluate the head much closer today at school.
I thought I took picture of it, but will today.

I know this does not tell the story, but visually, other than rust around valve margins to head seat area, I do not see crack, yet.
I am assuming with, every Exhaust port filled with ICE from H2O & weak coolant mixture, the head may be cracked from exhaust port sides, assuming AND more than one crack?

The fire ring cracked, would create compression sealing issues, until it errodes into the coolant passage opening close by it, pressurizing coolant system = blowing coolant out/overheating.

The liners look to be protruding at least possibly 1/32" maybe as much as 1/16"? Still need to clean up and measure.
#1 & #3 liners very rusted and most likely will not clean up, so that means liners/pistons already.

Exterior of right side of the block has been cracked (prior to PO), welded, braised?, JB?epoxied in some fashion. The PO that offered me the tractor told/explained what he knew of this repair.

So that will the next areas to B-line to for 2nd-3rd phase of evaluations.

It might be more economical to buy used motor that at least is runnng, which could also just be another "Pig in the Poke" to evaluate.

I do understand what I am getting into, Money, Money ,Money to fix properly. We are hoping to use this at our Motocross track to help keep it in ridable condition.

QUESTIONS, IF I may?
1) By being a utility, I assume it would possible run a Front End loader, has 1 lever on RH side of seat?
2) How do I know if this tractor has a TA system, maybe missing the lever?
 
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BarnyardEngineering
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:59 am    Post subject: Re: 504U_D188: Per PO = spewing out green coolant from exha Reply to specific post Reply with quote

On a tractor with a TA system there will be two throwout shafts on the left side of the section between the bell housing and the transmission. The one closest to the bell housing will have a long adjustable linkage running back to the clutch pedal. That's for the main clutch. There will be a second one a few inches behind it, connected to the main clutch throwout with a short adjustable link. Normally there would be another adjustable link running back to the TA lever.

99.99% of the time, the TA lever is not "just missing." It was removed for a reason, that usually being the low side of the TA is out. These will run practically forever on the high side.

With one remote, you will only be able to run a trip bucket loader. The hard part is finding a decent loader to fit the tractor. Usually the best way to go about it is to find the tractor with the loader already on it.
 
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:11 am    Post subject: Re: 504U_D188: Per PO = spewing out green coolant from exha Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Thank You for the information!
It at least gives me something to look for on this tractor as whether it has TA or not?

Another Question?
1) I assume the pump system on IH 504U, would be able to run a loader better than 1964 MF35?

Thank You Exclamation
 
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Eason
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 504U_D188: Per PO = spewing out green coolant from exha Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The D-188 were known to crack cylinder heads from time to time.
 
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:05 am    Post subject: Re: 504U_D188: Per PO = spewing out green coolant from exha Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I am in process of cleaning/stripping head.
I plan to use the metal dye crack detection process (3 can system) and Magnetic/metal chips inspection methods.

I feel the ice, no doubt has created a bad problem and/or made the weakest link rear it's head. I also understand damage will take place normally at the weakest point, or wherever it freezes the hardest.

In trying to determine root cause:
1) Something let go to completely to fill at least one exhaust port(s) and possibly into cylinder
2) Cranking engine over distributed coolant throughout the exhaust manifold and possibly into other cylinders.
3) It doesn't look visually like a rod bent due to hydraulic lock (admit, Have not measured w/ depth gauge).
4) I have yet emptied crankcase of coolant/oil, in order to clean out and pull pan. For what it's worth, trying to delay corrosion process by not exposing metal to air.
5) Block visual evaluation will be Friday project.

So I am thinking coolant was in cylinder on exhaust stroke which created thread title. What/where it let go in the 14+ day freeze, is now the big question.

I am in process of acquiring repair information.
I assume this engine has dry sleeves?
Hope to post some head picture results this weekend?
 
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:40 am    Post subject: Re: 504U_D188: Per PO = spewing out green coolant from exha Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Shocked Other than top of valve stem-valve guide wear, rust on parts from sitting with coolant filled exhaust ports, rust on valve faces-seats & corrosion from coolant.
I visually see...
1) Poor liner contact around #2 cyl. liner.
2) Poor head gasket sealing between #2 & #3 cylinders.
3) Potential head surface warped between #2 & #3 cylinders?
4) Head Combustion surface areas pitted from improper combustion process?
5) No obvious cracks with visual inspection only.
6) No water jacket plugs (look like all threaded plugs-pipe/gasket sealed?) or that could even think about pushing out, due to hard freeze.
7) Possible poor sealing surface around some of the Coolant head gasket sealing ring areas.
Cool injector Pre-combustion chamber ports carboned up, but no obvious sighs of coolant cracks, so far.
I have only gotten as far as stripping head and putty knife, wire brush cleaning.
Mineral spirits tank cleaning and then heated pressure cabinet cleaning next. Then closer crack-head surface inspections.
























 
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: 504U_D188: Per PO = spewing out green coolant from exha Reply to specific post Reply with quote

OKAY, I think I found the reason the dipstick tube was overflowing with green coolant.
I drained 5 gallons of coolant from engine crankcase Saturday.




By splitting so much, I assume this engine has wet liners and not dry?
 
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