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Cleaning to Bare Metal & Priming Question

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yakob
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:51 am    Post subject: Re: Cleaning to Bare Metal & Priming Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-David G wrote:
(quoted from post at 17:25:44 01/02/19) one part epoxy primer.


I just reread this thread and saw this comment...

What is "one part epoxy?" Doesn't it require 2 parts that you mix to be a true epoxy?
 
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DScott
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:00 am    Post subject: Re: Cleaning to Bare Metal & Priming Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I am far from being an expert but I struggled with the same issues the original poster mentioned when I started in this hobby as I had never painted anything. This is how I have prepped and painted my tractors since 2000:
Use paint stripper and a hot water pressure washer to strip the tractor down to bare metal. I do use electrolysis on some parts (fuel tanks, etc). As soon as they are clean, I spray them down with phosphoric acid and wipe off any excess after a few minutes. Parts will be almost black in some areas and white in others. These can set for months without any surface rust coming back when kept inside my shop.
When ready to prime, I wipe down with a good prep cleaner (Prep-sol, etc.). I then shoot the epoxy primer, I usually use PPG Omni epoxy primer. Wait the required time and then top coat.
This has always worked for me, some of these tractors I restored 19 years ago still look fresh with no rust bubbles or creeping out around the nuts and bolts as I see on some older restorations. I have heard people caution about priming/painting over phosphoric treated metals but I have never had an issue.

Below is a pic of my 34 A (painted in 2008) after being treated with phosphoric acid and ready for primer.



Same tractor after being primed.



After paint (John Deere Classic green).




Finished tractor, pic taken last summer.


 
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ASEguy
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:22 am    Post subject: Re: Cleaning to Bare Metal & Priming Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

You do good work. I use Picklex-20 instead of phosphoric acid. You never regret doing it right.
 
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RTR
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: Cleaning to Bare Metal & Priming Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-ASEguy wrote:
(quoted from post at 19:22:21 02/10/19) You do good work. I use Picklex-20 instead of phosphoric acid. You never regret doing it right.


This is what I’m dealing with and why I choose to prime as I go on cleaning. I cleaned the tractor a couple months ago and re-cleaned the axle last weekend and went ahead and primed it with rattle can primer. That is all I could finish the one day I had time to work.

See all of the surface rust on the cleaned areas that has accumulated? I feel like it will be near impossible to clean back off for a good paintable surface. All I have to use is a twisted wire wheel on a grinder and regular sand paper.

What do you all suggest to clean back to bare metal so I can lay down some good epoxy primer ? I don’t want to do any more sanding/cleaning on the tractor until I know I can get it primed within a week.
 
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RTR
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: Cleaning to Bare Metal & Priming Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

[quote="RTR"](quoted from post at 00:27:25 02/11/19) [quote="CVPost-ASEguy"](quoted from post at 19:22:21 02/10/19) You do good work. I use Picklex-20 instead of phosphoric acid. You never regret doing it right.[/quote]

This is what I’m dealing with and why I choose to prime as I go on cleaning. I cleaned the tractor a couple months ago and re-cleaned the axle last weekend and went ahead and primed it with rattle can primer. That is all I could finish the one day I had time to work.

See all of the surface rust on the cleaned areas that has accumulated? I feel like it will be near impossible to clean back off for a good paintable surface. All I have to use is a twisted wire wheel on a grinder and regular sand paper.

What do you all suggest to clean back to bare metal so I can lay down some good epoxy primer ? I don’t want to do any more sanding/cleaning on the tractor until I know I can get it primed within a week.[/quote]

Pictures of the above.....

[img]https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto31169.jpg[/img]

[img]https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto31170.jpg[/img]

[img]https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto31171.jpg[/img]

[img]https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto31172.jpg[/img]

[img]https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto31173.jpg[/img]

[img]https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto31174.jpg[/img]

[img]https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto31175.jpg[/img]
 
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RTR
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: Cleaning to Bare Metal & Priming Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Pictures- 2nd try.











 
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yakob
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:50 am    Post subject: Re: Cleaning to Bare Metal & Priming Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

RTR wrote:
(quoted from post at 14:38:07 02/10/19)
Pictures- 2nd try.












You don't really have that big of a mess on your hands, so I hope you aren't stressing out too much about it.

The wire wheel is going to get it back off the fastest. Some guys don't like to use them because they "polish" the surface...we haven't really had a problem but you could get a box of scuff pads or 320 sand paper and abrade the metal after cleaning with a wire wheel if it concerns you (it definitely won't be a step backwards). If you can't primer all at once and paint in your situation, I would suggest priming as you go as mentioned before. When it comes time to paint, scuff the cured primer yet again with some scuff pads, do a final seal coat of primer, then spray your paint on within recoat windows.

I always recommend against cheap primers, and you definitely don't want a primer that is going to "roll up" under whatever you do the final scuff with when the time comes...you'll have a whole new mess on your hands.

Another option would be to massage one of the phosphoric products into the metal with a scuff pad, section by section. Keep drips at bay and be careful with it -- get the rust dissolved as best you can then wipe *clean* with a damp cloth, then move to the next section. Again with this I would recommend scuffing once it comes time to prime/paint fully...I'm not a fan of trying to paint over hardened products of any sort without a good scuff to get things to adhere. I would recommend rolling out plastic under your tractor while you do this to keep concrete spots at bay if you drip a bit here and there.

Your primer cannot be an acid based primer to go over the phosphoric coating. I'm a fan of Kirker EnduroPrime epoxy primer these days. Fantastic product at a great price. It does take a couple hours to flash off for paint, but you might be able to turn your heat up to like 80* for a bit once done spraying to get around that...it sounds like you are a little pinched for time like the rest of us.

The only way in MY opinion that you will avoid re-scuffing whatever you put on the metal is if you prep the entire piece, prime, paint all with in a couple days.

Scuff pads:
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/Scotch-Brite-Hand-Pad-7447/?N=5002385+3293241244&rt=rud

Epoxy primer:
https://www.autobodytoolmart.com/kirker-enduro-prime-epoxy-primer-p-12620.aspx
https://www.autobodytoolmart.com/kirker-enduro-prime-epoxy-primer-catalyst-p-12621.aspx
 
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RTR
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:11 am    Post subject: Re: Cleaning to Bare Metal & Priming Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

yakob wrote:
(quoted from post at 20:50:43 02/11/19)



Thanks for the suggestions. Those are good words. I think I'm going to finish cleaning the rest of the tractor and pull it outside to wipe down with a vinegar-water mix (or phosphoric acid, then vinegar-water, then a prep-cleaner) to get the flash rust off the tractor. I will also be able to pressure wash the entire tractor before paint and let it dry in the sun. I don't have a way to "bake" the tractor or turn up the heat so the sun and weather temp is the only thing working for me.

Does anyone else have suggestions to get that surface flash rust off, or is my idea above good??

I think I'm gonna shoot an epoxy primer over it once cleaned.
 
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yakob
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: Cleaning to Bare Metal & Priming Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

RTR wrote:
(quoted from post at 13:11:13 03/05/19)
yakob wrote:
(quoted from post at 20:50:43 02/11/19)



Thanks for the suggestions. Those are good words. I think I'm going to finish cleaning the rest of the tractor and pull it outside to wipe down with a vinegar-water mix (or phosphoric acid, then vinegar-water, then a prep-cleaner) to get the flash rust off the tractor. I will also be able to pressure wash the entire tractor before paint and let it dry in the sun. I don't have a way to "bake" the tractor or turn up the heat so the sun and weather temp is the only thing working for me.

Does anyone else have suggestions to get that surface flash rust off, or is my idea above good??

I think I'm gonna shoot an epoxy primer over it once cleaned.


The rust isn't going to just "wash/wipe off" with anything short of scuff pads, if that is what you meant to say. The phosphoric treatments need to stay wet while they work and the best way to achieve this is to do them a small (1'x1') area at a time until that area is clean, wipe well with dry cloth, and progress. You seem to be interested in this type of product and in your case this looks like a good solution as it will leave the metal "rust resistant" at least for the immediate future. The coating will need scuffed again before priming for adhesion.

The vinegar is a waste of time IMO.
 
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RTR
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:56 am    Post subject: Re: Cleaning to Bare Metal & Priming Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Does the acid have to be neutralized after treatment? I know I soaked a gas tank with muratic Acid once and didn’t neutralize it just washed it out. It rusted back up worse than it was.
 
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yakob
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:16 am    Post subject: Re: Cleaning to Bare Metal & Priming Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

RTR wrote:
(quoted from post at 13:56:49 03/05/19)
Does the acid have to be neutralized after treatment? I know I soaked a gas tank with muratic Acid once and didn’t neutralize it just washed it out. It rusted back up worse than it was.


That probably depends on what you use. For example, Kirker's acid product says to neutralize with their cleaner as your next step before topcoating.

"For best results DTM Prep 6860 should be netrulized before applying a top coat primer such as Kirkers EP series of epoxy primers. to do this allow to fully air dry, then wipe off with clean water damped rag or a surface wash such as kirker 600 surface wash. "


Picklex I see used heavily on another forum and the process is to do what I have described -- just work one section and keep wiped off well with clean towels, then scuff before priming.

Some products (Picklex may actually be one of them) will actually tell to prime right over them, without the scuffing step. This is generally not accepted by the pros and seems to be marketing jargon to make the product appear easier to use than it actually is.

All products need to dry well before priming.

Whatever process you choose DO A SMALL AREA/PART FIRST from start to finish to make sure the process succeeds for you and you can't see weird spots coming through. If spots show up...you need to work harder at the wiping stage, most likely (LOL).
 
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showcrop
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Cleaning to Bare Metal & Priming Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

RTR wrote:
(quoted from post at 11:56:49 03/05/19)
Does the acid have to be neutralized after treatment? I know I soaked a gas tank with muratic Acid once and didn’t neutralize it just washed it out. It rusted back up worse than it was.


RTR, if you use any of the tried and proven phosphoric acid rust converters like Picklex or SEM Rust Mort which I use, it may just eat that flash rust easily. It is tough to tell from a photograph. Anyway, as you use your product of choice by the instructions, you will see the rust turning black. The black substance is iron phosphate which is inert. it is the black coating that they put on impact wrench sockets. As the instructions on the container will tell you you give it the contact time and keep brushing it, then wash it to get the excess off. I toss small pieces into a bucket and pressure wash larger pieces. Areas that don't have rust to convert need to be dried soon to avoid flash rust. I usually use a cloth soaked with alcohol. If you wash adequately the metal will be clean when dry. If not you will see a white residue which will need additional water washing with a brush
 
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RTR
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: Cleaning to Bare Metal & Priming Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

WHEW! That Picklex 20 looks like some good stuff, but gosh it is expensive. I know one should not skimp on the paint prep, but I could see using a half gallon ($100 worth) per tractor. Am I right? What are my options as far as equivalent stuff but cheaper, or where should I buy this stuff? I'll go with it if I have no choice like I said becuase it seems to be good stuff, but wanted to ask.
 
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yakob
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: Cleaning to Bare Metal & Priming Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

RTR wrote:
(quoted from post at 14:29:41 03/06/19) WHEW! That Picklex 20 looks like some good stuff, but gosh it is expensive. I know one should not skimp on the paint prep, but I could see using a half gallon ($100 worth) per tractor. Am I right? What are my options as far as equivalent stuff but cheaper, or where should I buy this stuff? I'll go with it if I have no choice like I said becuase it seems to be good stuff, but wanted to ask.


It will go a long way. I honestly haven't really used any of these products to speak of and don't know what would actually prevent you from using the klean strip acid etch the same way and it is like $15/gallon...
 
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showcrop
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Cleaning to Bare Metal & Priming Question Reply to specific post Reply with quote

RTR wrote:
(quoted from post at 12:29:41 03/06/19) WHEW! That Picklex 20 looks like some good stuff, but gosh it is expensive. I know one should not skimp on the paint prep, but I could see using a half gallon ($100 worth) per tractor. Am I right? What are my options as far as equivalent stuff but cheaper, or where should I buy this stuff? I'll go with it if I have no choice like I said becuase it seems to be good stuff, but wanted to ask.


RTR, my current project is a 1967 Datsun roadster. It was very rusty. I bought a quart of the Rust Mort when I started in 2015 and I have not used all of it and I am now in final assembly. It goes a long way. As stated earlier there are a number of different products that you can use, however if you want the conversion to iron phosphate which is a PROTECTIVE COATING it has to be PHOSPHORIC acid based. The Rustmort is made by SEM. they specialize in products for the auto body industry. RTR, please read this post two more times.
 
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