Yesterday's Tractor Co.
Shop Now View Cart
   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 9N,2N,8N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   Traditional YT Forum ViewClassic View   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile    Log inLog in 

Rustoleum on top of Tisco?

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

 
Post new topic    
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
paintron
Regular


Joined: 11 Mar 2019
Posts: 59


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 6:58 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I stand behind my 40 plus years of experience and 6 years of highly specialized education. Either way whether any advice given or followed or not is still the personal choice of the recipient.

Question when is the last time you sanded the interior walls of your house when redecorating with a new paint colour. Even with the old alkyds if you wanted to repaint with the crappy vinyl acetate latex a transition primer was a considerably better solution than scuffing.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Stephen Newell
Tractor Guru


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 7100


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 7:03 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Myself, I always sand everything even if it's lacquer. The finish tends to get smoother and better with each sanding. It's just worth the trouble.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
yakob
Regular


Joined: 04 Jan 2019
Posts: 212


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 9:17 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

paintron wrote:
(quoted from post at 09:58:11 05/10/19) I stand behind my 40 plus years of experience and 6 years of highly specialized education. Either way whether any advice given or followed or not is still the personal choice of the recipient.

Question when is the last time you sanded the interior walls of your house when redecorating with a new paint colour. Even with the old alkyds if you wanted to repaint with the crappy vinyl acetate latex a transition primer was a considerably better solution than scuffing.


FWIW you are being dodgy as to if your advice is "scuffing is never useful" or not, which is a question I keep asking. You have said a couple times "people can take my advice or leave it" but I can't tell specifically what that advice actually is.

It *seems* as though you are saying do not scuff ever. Which means we are, in your opinion, better off to throw out all the tech manuals and chemistry which has been developed for this to be the proper procedure on these products.

Good luck blending a clearcoat in and not having it fail in 2 years.

In your coil recoating example: no scuffing. Good for you, you said it yourself you had a specific process for that, and that sounds like it is pretty fresh paint you are going over.

Latex house paint: no scuffing and never have. That crap also never seems to cure out AND I have never had glossy walls to go over. Also most of it is labeled as primer/paint in one and the label doesn't require anything fancy. I also don't recall the last time I was worried about flexing or weather hitting my interior walls to put adhesion to the test..

There isn't ANY automotive primer or paint that I have seen that says "just spray it over what exists"! If your advice is to do the process as you have outlined pleas cite products that are designed to do this with, affordable, available, and in colors relevant to the forum.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
yakob
Regular


Joined: 04 Jan 2019
Posts: 212


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Stephen Newell wrote:
(quoted from post at 10:03:53 05/10/19) Myself, I always sand everything even if it's lacquer. The finish tends to get smoother and better with each sanding. It's just worth the trouble.


Exactly. No way around it especially on restoration work. Heck some of this stuff has 8 paint jobs on it!
 
Back to top
View user's profile
kencombs
Regular


Joined: 25 Jan 2012
Posts: 248


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I've been following along this discussion as I do some tractor, car, equipment and truck painting. I typically use an acrylic enamel or single stage urethane with an occassional two stage job.

I'd be interested in your recommended process for prepping a 2-10 year old factory paint job for recoating with an automotive AE 2K single stage paint.
Assume no body work, just original paint that is faded from weather exposure.

Also, assume the same job didn't turn out well and needs redone a couple of weeks later. What steps would you recommend.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
paintron
Regular


Joined: 11 Mar 2019
Posts: 59


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Scuffing for adhesion, not essential, for reducing excess coating different story, paint remover would be a better choice. If you consider the amount of lead driers in the alkyds and leaded pigments in other older paint jobs I would avoid scuffing at all costs. The old International and Allis Chalmers tractors I suspect are loaded with lead.

The automotive manufactures have a recoat limit in their specifications. If I remember properly its three recoats at GM. Their concern was not so much the thickness of the coating but rather orange peel which gets successively worse with more coats on vertical surfaces. Our line was horizontal so orange peel was not much of an issue. They would weigh our parts if they expected the limit was exceeded. I worked at a parts supplier at the time. The more scuffing they did to remove dirt defects the more they had to repair as the scuffing itself caused dirt. Believe it or not they had a 25% reject rate, as their quality engineer this stuff drove me nuts. The old adage you can t fly like and eagle when flying like with the turkeys really applied.
When I want to remove some coating in the lab, looking for metal defects etc., we use salt and MEK as a paste and rub off the coating in the area.

Occasionally we get customers returning old coils that they want repainted or coils that had issues when painted such as wavy edge, centre buckle that require tension leveling before repainting which may take weeks or months. Even excess that has been held in stores that is quite old, no problem repainting definitely no scuffing. High, medium, or low gloss makes no difference.

Went to Cuba a few times on vacation, seen what multiple coats of paint looks like on a car looks like, not good.

If someone tapes something to your wall and you want to remove it you ll learn quickly about adhesion, especially vinyl acetate over an alkyd. No amount of scuffing will make it stick and if you have an older home this lesson was learned quickly.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
yakob
Regular


Joined: 04 Jan 2019
Posts: 212


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

paintron wrote:
(quoted from post at 10:45:17 05/13/19) Scuffing for adhesion, not essential, for reducing excess coating different story, paint remover would be a better choice. If you consider the amount of lead driers in the alkyds and leaded pigments in other older paint jobs I would avoid scuffing at all costs. The old International and Allis Chalmers tractors I suspect are loaded with lead.

The automotive manufactures have a recoat limit in their specifications. If I remember properly its three recoats at GM. Their concern was not so much the thickness of the coating but rather orange peel which gets successively worse with more coats on vertical surfaces. Our line was horizontal so orange peel was not much of an issue. They would weigh our parts if they expected the limit was exceeded. I worked at a parts supplier at the time. The more scuffing they did to remove dirt defects the more they had to repair as the scuffing itself caused dirt. Believe it or not they had a 25% reject rate, as their quality engineer this stuff drove me nuts. The old adage you can t fly like and eagle when flying like with the turkeys really applied.
When I want to remove some coating in the lab, looking for metal defects etc., we use salt and MEK as a paste and rub off the coating in the area.

Occasionally we get customers returning old coils that they want repainted or coils that had issues when painted such as wavy edge, centre buckle that require tension leveling before repainting which may take weeks or months. Even excess that has been held in stores that is quite old, no problem repainting definitely no scuffing. High, medium, or low gloss makes no difference.

Went to Cuba a few times on vacation, seen what multiple coats of paint looks like on a car looks like, not good.

If someone tapes something to your wall and you want to remove it you ll learn quickly about adhesion, especially vinyl acetate over an alkyd. No amount of scuffing will make it stick and if you have an older home this lesson was learned quickly.


The house paint references are just about as relevant as the references to the coils and OEM processes. What products are you using for these coils that we can use on our body panels that help us avoid having to abrade a previous intact coat for adhesion?

Again with the paradigm shift... How much *aftermarket* automotive work have you done and what products? Please explain how I can blend clear coat in on a panel without scuffing down to about 800 grit.

Yes those old coatings are loaded with lead -- that is why we have PPE and there are laws around that sort of thing. There are also safety concerns and laws around using cleaners like TSP that has come up a few times elsewhere.

We are looking at 2 totally different viewpoints here. I see you saying "never scuff it's pointless" but then giving no real way to avoid it. There isn't a clearcoat that I've seen on the market that will go over another cured out, intact, slick coat of clearcoat. Period. You will get 0 support from the manufacturer WHEN it fails in the near future. Once you are out of the recoat window, I know of no other way to avoid abrasion. Same facts stand if you use an epoxy primer...you can not just wait 2 years and throw the next coat on. It will flake right off of that hard cured surface.

I can't bring a project that I'm halfway through into your coil coating line and get an automotive grade finish. I have to work with products and time I have available.

I apologize for blurring the line between an adhesion debate and a removal of defects/old coating for other reasons. That was not my intent.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
yakob
Regular


Joined: 04 Jan 2019
Posts: 212


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-kencombs wrote:
(quoted from post at 14:31:26 05/10/19) I've been following along this discussion as I do some tractor, car, equipment and truck painting. I typically use an acrylic enamel or single stage urethane with an occassional two stage job.

I'd be interested in your recommended process for prepping a 2-10 year old factory paint job for recoating with an automotive AE 2K single stage paint.
Assume no body work, just original paint that is faded from weather exposure.

Also, assume the same job didn't turn out well and needs redone a couple of weeks later. What steps would you recommend.


If the old job is in good physical condition i.e. not flaking off or delaminating and you trust it as a base:

sand w/ 320 and maroon schotch pads where needed
2 coats urethane surfacer
block surfacer
reapply surfacer where needed
DA w/ 400 or 600 depending on paint choice (metallic needs finer sanding)
spray paint

You need to use etch primer or epoxy anywhere you get bare metal before you put surfacer on. There may be some back and forth between surfacer, block sanding various grits, more surfacer but these are some loose guidelines.

I would definitely not use a metallic single stage, btw.

Or if you want to go against the labels on any surfacer money can buy AND throw out normal practice that people doing this professionally use, just get the surface good and clean and start spraying on top of it like ol' Ronald says.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
paintron
Regular


Joined: 11 Mar 2019
Posts: 59


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

When I first took coatings courses years ago the motto for the industry was ?To Decorate and protect?. Basically this means prevent corrosion, mitigate weathering and be aesthetically pleasing. Other courses in quality engineering I took for certificates had their own motto ?Do it right the first time.?

To meet the requirements of their motto coatings are applied in a system first treatment to prevent corrosion and promote adhesion to the substrate, secondly primer to promote adhesion to the treatment and the basecoat and/or topcoat. The basecoat contains the pigment for colour or if no basecoat the topcoat. Topcoat if alone or clear-coat provides the weathering protection. It all works together as one system.

Now for a hobbyist you want to follow the second motto. On a tractor the prime coat is probably only 0.5 mils thick and the topcoat 1.5 mils. If the integrity of the system is broken you need to have a plan and the available supply?s on hand, treatment, primer and topcoat to properly to restore it. The new paint job weathering nicely but corroding flaking, and/or chipping off is not what you probably are looking for.
Once you start scuffing your committed there is no going back.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
showcrop
Tractor Guru


Joined: 13 Dec 2000
Posts: 23219
Location: Chester NH

Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 2:31 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-paintron wrote:
(quoted from post at 11:13:44 05/14/19) When I first took coatings courses years ago the motto for the industry was ?To Decorate and protect?. Basically this means prevent corrosion, mitigate weathering and be aesthetically pleasing. Other courses in quality engineering I took for certificates had their own motto ?Do it right the first time.?

To meet the requirements of their motto coatings are applied in a system first treatment to prevent corrosion and promote adhesion to the substrate, secondly primer to promote adhesion to the treatment and the basecoat and/or topcoat. The basecoat contains the pigment for colour or if no basecoat the topcoat. Topcoat if alone or clear-coat provides the weathering protection. It all works together as one system.

Now for a hobbyist you want to follow the second motto. On a tractor the prime coat is probably only 0.5 mils thick and the topcoat 1.5 mils. If the integrity of the system is broken you need to have a plan and the available supply?s on hand, treatment, primer and topcoat to properly to restore it. The new paint job weathering nicely but corroding flaking, and/or chipping off is not what you probably are looking for.
Once you start scuffing your committed there is no going back.


Paintron, you can come here to YT and tell about how much education and experience you have, but you would do well to recognize that there are a number of guys here, not including myself, who have been recognized, without telling how much they know, as the go to guys on painting, simply because of posts that they have made over many years, and occasionally referring to various experiences that they have had in their own autobody shops. I think that it will be very difficult to convince guys here to disregard the manufacturer's instructions and follow yours.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Stephen Newell
Tractor Guru


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 7100


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 5:00 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

There is just no downside to scuff sanding a finish. The DIY doesn't have pristine conditions so there is usually a little dust in the finish. Sanding removes this dust and smooth's the surface for the next coat. Then many finishes function by a mechanical bond and the scratches in the surface created by the sand aid to the adhesion of the finish.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
lastcowboy32
Long Time User


Joined: 20 May 2015
Posts: 1098


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 5:21 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote


I'm a painting novice, complete novice. I read this thread, because this is how I usually work... Rust Oleum... Krylon... cans are my friend.

Anyway, what I can't understand is this reasoning...

Chemical bonding is better than mechanical bonding, so do not scuff.

But, but, but... doesn't an increase in surface area facilitate better chemical reaction/bonding as well?

If you start with a dry substrate or coat and you're only scuffing just a little bit, so that you aren't going through the layer that you're scuffing, you're increasing surface area...which should help the chemical bonding, right?

Since I don't have years and years of experience, I read the instructions on the cans. Most of the cans nowadays have two sets of instructions for subsequent coats:

Usually, many of the newer finishes are tack dry in about 20 minutes, and they say to do subsequent coats within an hour, so that you're getting what I think of as a "wet bond"... no scuffing required. That's the first method.

But, then, the cans say that, if you have to wait longer to recoat, you then need to wait 48 hours for complete dryness, and then scuff a little before re-coating. That's the second method.

Guys like paintron, working in automotive and professional shops can optimize conditions, and recoating times. They can take advantage of the "wet bond"... us hacks...that have to work around work, animals, other commitments and such, usually have to scuff every once in a while; because we've had to let one coat dry past the wet bond state, while we're doing something else.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
yakob
Regular


Joined: 04 Jan 2019
Posts: 212


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Stephen Newell wrote:
(quoted from post at 08:00:24 05/15/19) There is just no downside to scuff sanding a finish. The DIY doesn't have pristine conditions so there is usually a little dust in the finish. Sanding removes this dust and smooth's the surface for the next coat. Then many finishes function by a mechanical bond and the scratches in the surface created by the sand aid to the adhesion of the finish.


Yep. I've gotten to where I'm at near 0 dust even without a booth but I just wasn't making the correlation to sanding causing dust in the finish. That just sounded like poor wipe down and cleanliness to me.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
yakob
Regular


Joined: 04 Jan 2019
Posts: 212


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 5:55 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

lastcowboy32 wrote:
(quoted from post at 08:21:21 05/15/19)
I'm a painting novice, complete novice. I read this thread, because this is how I usually work... Rust Oleum... Krylon... cans are my friend.

Anyway, what I can't understand is this reasoning...

Chemical bonding is better than mechanical bonding, so do not scuff.

But, but, but... doesn't an increase in surface area facilitate better chemical reaction/bonding as well?

If you start with a dry substrate or coat and you're only scuffing just a little bit, so that you aren't going through the layer that you're scuffing, you're increasing surface area...which should help the chemical bonding, right?

Since I don't have years and years of experience, I read the instructions on the cans. Most of the cans nowadays have two sets of instructions for subsequent coats:

Usually, many of the newer finishes are tack dry in about 20 minutes, and they say to do subsequent coats within an hour, so that you're getting what I think of as a "wet bond"... no scuffing required. That's the first method.

But, then, the cans say that, if you have to wait longer to recoat, you then need to wait 48 hours for complete dryness, and then scuff a little before re-coating. That's the second method.

Guys like paintron, working in automotive and professional shops can optimize conditions, and recoating times. They can take advantage of the "wet bond"... us hacks...that have to work around work, animals, other commitments and such, usually have to scuff every once in a while; because we've had to let one coat dry past the wet bond state, while we're doing something else.


He's not even talking about "shops" from what I've gathered but purely OE and factory. He *will not* provide any product recommendations to back a lot of his claims up either...

No doubt his process is near perfect for those applications. I enjoy learning about new products and trying out new processes but everything has its caveats that need fleshed out before everyone just dives off the deep end. There are things to weigh out for any product or process change and I like to play devils advocate for the greater good of the community. Sometimes that comes off as pointless arguing but it is very good for others to see things looked at and debated through a different lens.

There's a lot to learn on this site but "stop scuffing" simply is not one of those things people should be taking away as a lesson.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Stephen Newell
Tractor Guru


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 7100


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 12:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The true chemical bonding ended when they quit making automotive paints out of lacquer. On lacquer you could spray a dried finish with lacquer thinner and it would get a little sticky again. The solvent re-wet's the old finish. Therefore when you put a coat of lacquer over and old one the solvents in it will cause them to melt together. With enamels and your rattle can paint there is a certain amount of chemical bond if one coat is applied over the other in a timely fashion. Still there isn't any reason you couldn't achieve a chemical bond and a mechanical bond both by painting in a timely fashion and scuff sanding too. The scratches made by the sandpaper will aid the bond.

I don't know how much I would read into factory paint on cars. They are pushing limits. They are stuck with trying to quickly get a product out the door and at the same time appease the environmental crackpots. In the end if you look around you see more and more fairly new cars with the paint pealing off of them. It used to be the only time you saw a failing paint job on a car was an old one or a bad paint job done by an individual.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
:   
Post new topic    Yesterday's Tractors Forum Index -> Paint and Bodywork All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  

TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
Fast Shipping!  Most of our stocked parts ship within 24 hours (M-Th). We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our fast shipping, low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

YT Home  |  Forums

Modern View Forum powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters