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Starting button on 450 Gas ?

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rvirgil_KS
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Joined: 07 Jul 2007
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Location: Northwest Kansas

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:13 am    Post subject: Re: Starting button on 450 Gas ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

According to 450 gas diagram I have, the 450 used a resistor start bypass system. Voltage from I post on starter supplied 12 volts to input of coil to bypass resistor for hotter starting spark

The solenoid shown is only 3 post. It would have the S post to engage solenoid but no I output post to bypass the resistor.

There are similar 4 post versions available
 
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rvirgil_KS
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: Starting button on 450 Gas ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I agree with Janicholson below

Solenoids and relays are both activated by an electromagnetic coil.

In my mind the technical difference is that a relay pulls 2 contact points together to activate a circuit. In the tractor world a common example is the contact points in a voltage regulator. The purpose of a relay is to be an electronically controlled switch, or to use a small current activated device to control a higher current demand. Relays are common in vehicles and many types of electronic equipment

A solenoid is an electromagnetic device that activates a plunger. As an example, I've seen them used in reel to reel tape recorders to activate the tape transport.

A starter relay/solenoid would be a combination. It uses a plunger, but it also closes switch contacts.
 
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ih560
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:10 am    Post subject: Re: Starting button on 450 Gas ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Think whatever you want and disagree with whoever you want. It's just annoying when someone tries to correct you on something when you are already correct.
We could argue semantics all day. It is cleary a Solenoid, which is a subset of a Relay. So yes, it is a relay, but it is obviously correct to call it a Solenoid, because that is what it is and what the rest of the world calls it. What else can we argue and arbitrarily assign personal beliefs to? I don't think a car is a car unless it has a V8, anything less and it is just an Automobile. Because in my book, you have to have 8 Cylinders to be a real car. ( I don't really believe this, but am just showing how foolish the argument is.)
 
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ih560
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:14 am    Post subject: Re: Starting button on 450 Gas ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The bypass to the Coil past the Resistor is not necessary for the tractor to start effectively. If it is, then please don't tell the thousands of tractors that have been converted to 12V from 6V and a resistor added to the only positive wire going to the coil. They start just fine and do not need the bypass.
Yes, you can get the other Solenoid that has the 4th post, TSC has them on the shelf, the last time I was in there.
 
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pete 23
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting button on 450 Gas ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I think there is a difference between an argument and a difference of opinion. In the tractor
world we normally call that unit on the 450 a relay and refer to the other style that incorporates
exterior linkage to engage starter drive are called solenoids. Just the way it is done around
here.

I know a lot of parts books refer to them as relays but then a lot of them just call them a switch
like the online IH parts books often do .

Now as far as the amount of terminals, WELL, the first year the 450 was made it was a 6 volt
system on gasoline tractors so one single small terminal on starter relay. Then when they
switched to 12 volts they used the two small terminals with the one being the bypass for starting.
Most engines start better with the bypass system. I myself have two tractors converted to 12 volt
with no bypass and they do start fine but if I had a true 12 volt 450 I would use the bypass
system. Just the way I am.
 
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ih560
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting button on 450 Gas ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

It wasn't the difference of opinion that annoyed me, it was the "matter of fact" way that I was corrected. Please tell IH they are incorrect in their parts diagrams as well. It is called a Switch - Solenoid, but never relay, although I am not disputing that it isn't a relay. A solenoid is just a more specific type of relay and more narrowed down than just relay.




 
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Wicksfield
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting button on 450 Gas ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

IH560, fwiw, I agree that solenoids are used to transfer heavy amperage like in a starting circuit. A relay however works on the
same principle but would transfer moderate amperage which a switch could not handle. A relay may be used in, say, a
headlight/taillight/running light circuit.
 
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OldFarmall450
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Location: Wichita Falls, Texas by Gawd!!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting button on 450 Gas ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Im almost afraid to post another query.... but when i wired up my tractor im pretty sure the starter button wasn't wired into the ignition switch... so do you think it's the push button switch... or the solenoid/relay ?

I suck at electronics, using a voltmeter how can i tell which is bad? I hate throwing parts at it.

Again, thanks.
 
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504
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting button on 450 Gas ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The low battery is the most likely cause of the stuck starter. But there is a real chance that the solenoid has welded itself,it
might work fine, or try to start as soon as you charge it. I would unhook a battier cable before you work on it,you may need to
unhook it in a hurry. Safety first. Smile
 
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pete 23
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: Starting button on 450 Gas ? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Be not afraid. We stand before for you always, or something like
that.

Try the starter button without turning on ign switch. That will
quickly tell you if button is hooked to switch like it is supposed
to be.

You can hook volt meter to small terminal on starter relay. If
starter continues to run after you release button and meter reads
voltage, button is stuck or wiring is wrong back feeding from
somewhere,(not at all likely but possible).

No reading means relay is stuck and you cannot take them apart
like you can a common starter solenoid
 
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