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1947 Case SO - startup trouble

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arg22
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:33 pm    Post subject: 1947 Case SO - startup trouble Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Long time reader, first post...
I tried bump starting a 6V starter with a 12V battery, but only succeeded in melting the tip of my jumper cables. Positive on 12V battery was connected to the post on the starter motor, and negative from the battery was connected to a part of the body - but only for about a second as it only made a click in the motor, no rotation, and started melting where the negative cable was attached to the body. Does this mean I attached the cables to the wrong sides?

Here's the longer story:
Rebuilding a Case SO for a neighbor (who bought it new in 1947). Sat in a field for years without running. Put in new 6V battery and oil change, and it barely turned over with the electronic starter motor. So then did magneto rebuild, valve job, carb rebuild, but no help with startup. Compression gauge was registering almost nothing in all 4 cylinders. Starter fluid resulted in only barely visible puffs out of the manifold. So then got all new rings, slightly oversized to get the cold end gap down to about .010-.015". Lubed everything up and put back together. Still registering no compression, and now the starter motor only moves it a partial turn, have to hit it several times until it gets close to TDC, then does almost a full turn. So I'm guessing that the starter just can't make it all the way around fast enough to get good compression. And the new rings have made it even harder. At least I am getting bigger puffs from the starter fluid, and can hear a lot of "breathing" in the mani.
The 6V battery I'm using with the starter has a simple igniition button. The 6V battery voltage after full charge was ~6.5V; after a whole lot of attempts it was down to 6.2. During startup (with the starter stuck / locked operation), voltage from positive battery terminal to the body ground is about 4V, and 2V from the positive battery terminal to the starter post.
The starter motor itself looks like a beast to get off - tiny little flat head long screws with a lot of rust. Not excited to open it up to clean things out.
But wondering if I keep turning the engine, things will lube up to the point that this might work. I've tried the hand crank - guess I'm even weaker than the starter motor.
Does this sound like a starter motor issue? And any ideas on how to succeed with the 12V battery bump start?
Thanks
 
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J Hamilton
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 1947 Case SO - startup trouble Reply to specific post Reply with quote

What size battery cables are on the
tractor? I use 2/0 cables on my 6V
tractors. Also you can pull the spark plugs
and then try to crank it to see if turns
more freely without compression.
 
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arg22
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 1947 Case SO - startup trouble Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-J Hamilton wrote:
(quoted from post at 15:38:45 11/20/20) What size battery cables are on the
tractor?

Thanks for the quick response!
I think it's a 2. Resistance from starter post to ignition button is 0.3 ohms; from ignition button to battery is 0.1 (same gauge but shorter). I've cleaned off all the terminals with a wire brush.
Do you think the thicker gauge would solve this, or does it feel like a worn out starter?
Yeah - without the plugs in, it turns a little easier, but still can't turn back-to-back revolutions without locking up.
 
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arg22
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 1947 Case SO - startup trouble Reply to specific post Reply with quote

arg22 wrote:
(quoted from post at 16:18:38 11/20/20)
I think it's a 2.
BTW - that's 2, not 2/0, given the diameter of exposed wire being about 6.8mm.
 
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J Hamilton
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: 1947 Case SO - startup trouble Reply to specific post Reply with quote

You definitely need heavy gauge battery
cables on a 6 volt, smaller cables will not
carry enough power. I would not rule out a
weak starter, but I would start with new
cables first. I use 2/0 welding cables for
battery cables myself.
 
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J Hamilton
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 1947 Case SO - startup trouble Reply to specific post Reply with quote

This is what I use for cables

 
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teddy52food
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: 1947 Case SO - startup trouble Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Get a friend that knows how to help you pull start it. Let it run for a while to
limber up. Make sure it has good oil pressure.
 
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mschwartz
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 1947 Case SO - startup trouble Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Those tractors having an oil clutch the starter will likely remove easier than you think. Loosen the jam nut first and the screw usually comes out pretty
easy, half the time the screw will come out with the jam nut. Good luck, Mike
 
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TractorTucker
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: 1947 Case SO - startup trouble Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The starter on my DC that sat outside
under a tree for 15 years came off no
problem.
 
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Steve@Advance
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:39 pm    Post subject: Re: 1947 Case SO - startup trouble Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Being that stiff to turn is concerning. I hope the ring end gaps were measured a good way down the bore, not at the top.

Was anything else done to the bearings? When was the tightness noticed?

Were the valves adjusted after the head was put back on?

It could be the starter bushings are worn, causing the starter to drag and pull excess amps.

After you go through the starter, you can temporary a 12v battery in to get it started. That is better and safer than using jumper cables. Just have everything ready and avoid long cranking. If it still wont spin on 12v, (it should spin really fast) something is wrong.
 
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tractorguy2
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 1947 Case SO - startup trouble Reply to specific post Reply with quote

You need heavy cables. You also need a new push button switch.
And clean the rust out of the hole in the housing with a.small
drum sander so the starter will have a good ground. I have a 48
SC six. Volts it cranks right over.
 
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504
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:19 am    Post subject: Re: 1947 Case SO - startup trouble Reply to specific post Reply with quote

THe chances are good the the 6V tractor is a Positive ground,you always jump Pos to Pos,Neg to Neg.If
I understand your post you jumped it backwards.
 
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rvirgil_KS
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:07 am    Post subject: Re: 1947 Case SO - startup trouble Reply to specific post Reply with quote

As long as you went direct to the input post on the starter, and the starter activating switch was completely open/off, the polarity of your jumper cables should not matter

But it is always wise to match the polarity of the on board battery when jump starting
 
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casecollectorsc
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: 1947 Case SO - startup trouble Reply to specific post Reply with quote

If you can't turn the engine freely by hand, you have problems elsewhere.
 
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fixerupper
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: 1947 Case SO - startup trouble Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The S is one of the oddballs for that era that has negative ground. Reversing the polarity to the starter will not affect a thing as long as it is disconnected from the original battery. A 12 volt should spin that S over like a million bucks if the engine is loose especially if there is no compression. I think Steve is on the right track. Either the engine is tight or the starter has an internal dead short.
 
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