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Case 450D Starts but will not move.

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Doug5
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:23 pm    Post subject: Case 450D Starts but will not move. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I have an early 1965 Case 450D that will not move. A little background for context of what was going on when this happened.

I was using the dozer when I threw a track. A couple of days later I had a mechanic from Pape come onsite to help me put the track back on. During the process of running the track on and trying to wedge the track back on, it seemed to bind up and the track would not rotate. The mechanic suggested that we check the transmission fluid level, and we found that it was low. My Case manual states to use TCH oil in tyranny, but mechanic said that we could use 30w regular oil and that they do it all the time. So we put 2 gallons of 30w in. After putting in the oil the track rotated enough that we were able to get the track on, but then the dozer would not move. That was September 2020.

I had in my mind that the ring gear had broken, because in the last 27 years it has broken twice before. So today April 29, I decided to take a look at it. After pulling off the floor boards, I saw that the driveline was spinning, and when put into gear, the shaft stopped spinning. When throttle was increased, the shaft still did not move, but it felt I was pushing against a big stump, rpm's down, and not going anywhere and tracks not turning. Changing from forward to reverse, I can see a little movement in both directions. And then it moved a couple of feet forward and backward. So, I thought that if the ring was broken, the driveline should be spinning all the time, so maybe it was OK and there was another problem. The dozer has moved only a couple of feet and has probably idled 30 minutes to an hour since the wrong oil was put in.

So now I am wondering if the 30w oil could be the problem, or just by coincidence the transmission filter is plugged or some other problem. Should I drain the transmission? Does the fluid in the converter also have to be changed? Change the filter? Does every ounce of 30w have to be removed? Is there just one Trans filter? Where are the drain plugs? Any ideas of other problems given my symptoms? Did the 30w destroy something?

Thanks!
 
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AJ.
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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: Case 450D Starts but will not move. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I doubt very much if the oil you added is the cause of your trouble even though it should not have been used, the TCH oil is about 10W and the oil you added is three times that, if it was a straight 30 it is way too heavy but you only put in two gallons into which is about a third, the only thing the heavier oil could do is block the suction filter, there is no clutches or any friction parts in the torque, check the suction strainer is clean, what are the pressure gauges reading, if there is no pressure take off the line from the suction filter and fill it with oil and reconnect it and see if it makes pressure, if it has pressure it's very likely the ring has let go again.
AJ
 
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BTfromBG
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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Case 450D Starts but will not move. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

What exactly are you all calling a ring
gear, I thought they only had bevel
gears.
 
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AJ.
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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Case 450D Starts but will not move. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I took it as it was the fibre ring gear that goes between the torque and flywheel he was referring to, with the drive shaft not turning going into the transmission it means there is no drive coming from the torque, so either no oil pressure or the ring gear is stripped.
AJ
 
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Dennis K (WA)
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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 12:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Case 450D Starts but will not move. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I agree with AJ, that the 30w oil probably has not caused your problem. Drive line spinning in neutral would be normal and also mean the drive gear at the flywheel is intact. In gear, tracks not moving, the driveline should stall unless you have a slipping clutch pack in the trans. If I remember right the machine has dry brakes with an expander. Could they be locked up? I don't think there is a way to drain the converter. Your operators book will tell you filter info.
It has been a long time ago for me so maybe AJ can fill in the gaps or correct me. Good luck
Dennis
 
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Doug5
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Case 450D Starts but will not move. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Changed transmission filter and I think it was the suction strainer.(It is mounted right at the firewall on the right side of dozer.) During the first few minutes after start up, dozer will move forward and backward, but as soon as there is a load driveline stops moving. Then I cannot get it to move. Not all my gauges work. The one that goes into the left side of TC reads 30-40 psi at idle. At higher RPM it pegs the gauge at 100 psi. The gauge that I think is the transmission, is broken and it goes to the right side of TC. Oil and filter looks clean. It seems to me that the ring gear is good since driveline stops turning under load. Any other filters to check? Any way to check out TC without the proper test equipment? Thanks for the help!!!
 
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Doug5
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Case 450D Starts but will not move. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The gear between the flywheel and TC. Later models changed to a flex plate, but mine has a fiber gear about 10 outside and 9 inside diameter and about 1 thick. Thinking gear is OK. Any ideas on Testing torque converter?
 
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Doug5
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 4:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Case 450D Starts but will not move. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The brakes have not worked the 27 years that I have owned it.So I don't think that is the problem. How would I check if it is clutch packs or slipping torque converter? Thanks Dennis. I am in Kent, do you know of any mobile mechanics in the area that have knowledge in old stuff?
 
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AJ.
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 4:48 am    Post subject: Re: Case 450D Starts but will not move. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Scribbled in my old note book is pump flow 12 gals min, torque oil pressure at 2000rpm 35-55 psi, transmission pressure 225 psi, watch the drive shaft between the torque and transmission with the engine running at high idle, is the shaft spinning, shift into gear watching the shaft, does it stop, if it does not stop then the trouble is in the transmission, if it does stop then there is no drive coming from the torque, why?, regulator valve stuck open, low pressure, stripped fibre ring failed torque, a proper flow and pressure test should be the next step.
AJ
 
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Dennis K (WA)
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: Case 450D Starts but will not move. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hi Doug, Not much more help from here, it has just been too long ago. Does it sound like the engine is under a load when reved up in gear, driveline stalled and won't move? It should be if torque is doing it's job.
Like AJ said, need gauges a testing done.
I am not in your area but use to be. Lived in Covington in 80"s and 90's and worked for the Case dealer on West Valley Hwy in Auburn. Different dealer name now I think. I have lost contact with anyone that maybe could help you out. Good luck
Dennis
 
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AJ.
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 1:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Case 450D Starts but will not move. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hi guys I did not get the bit about it bogging down the engine, if that's the case then torque is driving and something is jammed in the transmission, if it stripped a tooth off the forward/reverse clutch pack gear and moves a few feet that would bring the bad tooth around again and it would jam but you can reverse back again, the few feet it moves is it continuous or do you have to back up in the same spot, something could have let go while you were putting on the track not good, do not force anything now till you can establish what's wrong.
AJ
 
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Doug5
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Case 450D Starts but will not move. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

First of all, a big thanks to AJ, Dennis and BT for taking the time to try and educate this novice.

Update from this morning to see if this adds any light to my problem.

This morning it was in the 40's and when I started the dozer. I only let it warm up maybe 30 seconds and then into reverse. It tracked great 30 feet and up a slight hill. Then forward with no problems. I Did that 4 or 5 times, and then it started having a problem going up the slight hill. From the beginning, if I put the blade down hard and tried to push or pull, the driveline would stop spinning. On start up, the TC gauge pinged the needle at over 100 psi. Not sure if this is the correct gauge for the dozer or correct scale range. When moving, TC was at 50 psi. Idling when cold it was 90 to 100 and dipped to 50 - 60 range as soon as I put into gear. It seemed to me that it moved better this morning because it was colder outside. I only went 30 feet because of location, but I am sure it would have gone 100 feet or more with no problems on the flat. Sooooo, I don't think there is something jammed in the trans. Since the driveline stops, it seems that if there is something slipping in the trans. the driveline would still rotate but dozer would not move. So that leaves TC or Charge pump. Any way to tell without doing a pressure test? To find someone around here that doesn't want a child or two for payment, will be hard. Do you guys think I am on the right path or is there something else I am missing? Thanks again!
 
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AJ.
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: Case 450D Starts but will not move. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

It suggests that the transmission is ok and so is the fibre ring, it cannot be driving one minute and not the next if the ring stripped the teeth the debris would have been the strainer, now down to the pressure issue, there are two relief valves in the torque housing, have you checked them?, the next issue is the pump, what I would do now is change the oil, drain out what is in there and refill it with TCH or a equivalent Hy-Trans oil, takes bout six gallons., have you a manual to guide you where things are, did you find where the oil that was missing leaked from, a Case mechanic with gauges would be the sensible thing to prevent buying things that maybe not needed such as the pump as that is probably $1k or more.
AJ
 
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Dennis K (WA)
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 8:25 am    Post subject: Re: Case 450D Starts but will not move. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Doug, I think you are on the right path. I do not think you have a major converter failure of the rotating elements or your filters would have been full of aluminum cutting. That pretty much leaves pressures and flow. Pump or pressure regulators.
Moving forward without numbered test gauges and knowledge of the system will be a guessing game.
A visit to the Case service department may be in order. They should be able to offer some guidance or let you look in their manuals. They may or may not loan them to you though. We use to have customers in there all the time asking for help. If they were nice about it all, they generally got some help. Good luck
Dennis
 
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: Case 450D Starts but will not move. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

When I drain the oil out of the transmission, do I also have to drain the converter? I have not found a location of a drain plug on the converter, do I disconnect a hose? Does all the oil have to come out or just most of it? ie: drain hoses etc.

I do have a parts and service manual. I have looked over the part manual many times and cannot see any relief valves or drain plug locations. Are the relief valves inside the converter housing or attached outside the housing? I just have not seen anything that looks like a valve on the outside close to the converter. Do I have to remove the converter? I have not found the location of the oil leak. My machine probably only gets an average of 10 or 15 hours of use a year, so as long as it has worked I have not wanted to do a lot of work on it. I no it is shame on me on the maintenance, but for 27 years, this old 450 just keeps on running.

AJ, I just saw that you are from the UK. I haven't noticed any accent Smile Thanks, Doug
 
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