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9n wiring problems


 
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lester parton
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:12 pm    Post subject: 9n wiring problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I got a 9n tractor few days ago. the owner says it is a positive ground,but it has been changed to a 12volt .points, condenser, coil probable burnt up. any help would be appreciated ,i am ready to drive this old ford.
 
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Bruce (VA)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 9n wiring problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

What is your question?

If it is 12v, it probably isn't positive ground. But positive or negative ground didn't do anything to the points or coil. If you hooked up an alternator positive ground, it will be toast. But that won't prevent the tractor from starting.

Does the engine turn over?

Got spark at the plugs?

Fuel turned on & gas in the tank?
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lester parton
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 9n wiring problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

turns over,no spark will not start
 
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souNdguy
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:08 pm    Post subject: Re: 9n wiring problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

alternator or still got a genny?

( no matter ).

if it had a 12v bat dropped in it.. and no additional resistor instaleld in the ignition.. or no coil change out. coila nd or points may be toast. if it had ei.. ei is toast.

post some details if you want better remote diagnostics..
 
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lester parton
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:58 pm    Post subject: Re: 9n wiring problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

thanks for the info ,has alt, i will replace coil points condenser. lots of info in the 75 tips
 
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ZANE
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 9n wiring problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Be sure that you have two resistors in series if it has the 6 volt coil.

If you buy a new coil get the 12volt replacement and then only the one resistor is needed.

Zane
 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 9n wiring problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Funny! Some act like a resistor is a resistor. They come in a thousand different values! Sad
One could replace a thousand. Or a thousand could replace one.
 
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ZANE
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:04 am    Post subject: Re: 9n wiring problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Talking about an N Ford tractor, not a TV set.

Zane
 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:28 am    Post subject: Re: 9n wiring problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

ZANE wrote:
(quoted from post at 08:04:44 09/04/13) Talking about an N Ford tractor, not a TV set.

Zane
That reduces the thousand down to maybe several dozen, ranging from about 0.3 to 5.0 Ohms!
 
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Bruce (VA)
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:18 am    Post subject: Re: 9n wiring problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

" i will replace coil "

Why? Is it bad? Unless the coil is cracked or shows a dead short, chances are it's fine; square coils rarely fail cold.

It takes three things for an engine to run: spark at the right time, compression, & fuel in the right mixture. For the moment, forget about compression & concentrate on narrowing the problem down to spark or fuel.

There are three very important tools you always need to have in your N tool box: a 3 inch piece of wire w/ alligator clips on each end, an old spark plug w/ the gap opened to at least 3/16” ( ¼” is better) and a 7/16 box end wrench. (see tip # 50 at the link below) And, you really do need a working ammeter on the tractor; it is a very important diagnostic tool. With these tools, you can quickly narrow down most N problems to spark or fuel.


Before you check anything else, make sure you have the correct voltage at the top of the coil. It should be battery voltage w/ the points open & about half that w/ the points closed.

Next, make sure your battery is fully charged. Don't guess; put it on a charger.

You need a strong battery to:

1. Close the solenoid

2. Spin the starter

3. Engage the bendix

4. Provide voltage to the coil.

As the battery gets weaker, the first thing to fail is your spark. If the battery is almost totally dead, all you will hear is the solenoid clicking.

The more current you use to spin the starter, the less you have for the ignition.

Next, check for fuel. Get a can & put it under the carb. Remove the bolt in the bottom of the carb; as long as the fuel is turned on, you should see gas flowing out of the carb. Let it run for at least 30 seconds. If it’s a dribble, or runs for 5 seconds & stops, or none at all, you have solved half the problem: it’s fuel related. If gas flows well out of the carb & only stops when you turn it off at the sediment bowl, chances are very good it’s not a fuel problem.

So, next, turn the key on, crank the engine & look at the ammeter. What is the needle doing? Does it show a constant discharge, no movement at all, or does it move back & forth slightly? Next, get the old plug, ground it to a rust & paint free spot on the engine, turn the key on & crank the engine. If the spark jumps the 3/16” gap, you probably don’t have a spark problem. If it won’t jump the 3/16” gap, you have a spark problem. If the ammeter needle shows a constant discharge, or doesn’t move at all, that also tells you that you have a spark problem. Jump the ignition switch w/ your jumper wire & see what happens. If it runs, you found the problem. If it doesn’t have spark after you jump the ignition switch, post back for more info on further troubleshooting. (and do not forget to turn the ignition switch off; see tip # 38)

If it does not have gas coming out of the carb at a steady stream w/ the bolt out for at least 30 seconds, you have a fuel problem. First, remove the gas cap. Your vent could be clogged & it vacuum locked. If that doesn’t work, tap the carb bowl w/ a hammer handle in case the float is sticking closed. (don’t whack it w/ the head of the hammer; you can crack the bowl). If you still don’t see gas flowing, the N has three fuel screens; one in the brass elbow, one in the top of the sediment bowl & one on the stem of the sediment bowl in the gas tank. Check the screen in the elbow & the screen in the top of the sediment bowl. (don’t worry about the one in the tank) Both probably need to be cleaned. If you have the fuel knob turned on all the way, & 1 gallon or less in the tank, it may be trying to feed off of the reserve inlet which is probably clogged. Only open it 2 full turns. Put at least 2 gallons in the tank. (and do not forget to turn the gas off; see tip # 9)

There are ways to check for spark & fuel that work & ways that don't. For example, having gas to the carb is nice, but having it past the float is what counts! That’s why removing the 7/16” bolt in the bottom of the carb is the way to check for fuel. And, same thing w/ spark at the plugs. Some folks think that checking for spark means pulling a plug wire off & looking for one. Well, it's the distance the spark jumps at the plug that gives you the info you want. It takes about 17kv to jump a 3/16" gap & 22kv to jump ¼” in the open air. Remember, it’s 14psi outside of the engine & about 90psi at a 6:1 compression ratio in the cylinders & compressed air creates electrical resistance, so you really need the 17-22kv to fire the plugs when the engine is running. A store bought plug checker will work better than an old plug because it won’t shock the snot out of you like an old plug might!
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lester parton
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: 9n wiring problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

i have fire to the coil,but nothing at the plug.i ask my wife to hold the plug wire while i turn it over,but she no.... ha ha
 
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Bruce (VA)
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 9n wiring problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

" i have fire to the coil"

That is a good start.....but not good enough.

Recall that I said "..... make sure you have the correct voltage at the top of the coil. It should be battery voltage w/ the points open & about half that w/ the points closed."

So what is it? What is the voltage reading w/ the points open & what is it w/ the points closed?

Assuming that the bushings & advance weights are ok, & that you have correct voltage to the coil, the most common electrical failure (no spark, weak spark) points on the frontmount are:

1. The insulator under the brass concave head screw & where the copper strip attaches. (it’s fiber & will wear out; poke & prod w/ your meter leads to make sure it still works)

2. The pigtail at the bottom of the coil not making contact w/ the concave head brass screw inside the distributor. (With the coil on, the pigtail must firmly contact the brass screw. No contact = no spark.

3. The copper strip is broken or grounded to the plate. (look very carefully for cracks & breaks)

4. The condenser wire grounding to the plate or side of the distributor.

5. The tab on the bottom of the coil not making contact w/ the brass button on the cap. (With the cap on, the tab must firmly contact the brass button. No contact = no spark.)

6. Incorrect positioning of the spring clip on the plate causing the pigtail to ground. (the open part of the clip goes between 7 & 9 o’clock on the plate. That puts the straight part of the clip opposite of the timing screw at 3 o’clock)

7. Incorrect seating of the coil on the distributor due to a loose bail or no gasket.(the coil must not move at all; if it does, replace the gasket or bail. Or stick some cardboard under the bail).

8. Water/moisture inside the cap due to gasket failure or the absence of a gasket. (the cap AND coil have gaskets)

9. Dirty/corroded/burned/incorrectly gapped or misaligned points.

10. Burned rotor, cracked/carbon tracked cap.

Unless the coil is cracked or shows a dead short, chances are it's fine; square coils rarely fail cold. Pull the distributor & do a continuity check.

First, make sure your meter/light works (don't ask....)

You can change points everyday & it will not fix bad bushings. If you are having trouble w/ points failure, check the shaft. If you detect movement, chances are it needs new bushings.

Inspect the points; if they are pitted or burned, replace them. Next, dress the points by running a piece of card stock or brown paper bag through them. New points sometimes have an anti-corrosive dielectric coating on them & old points can corrode or pick up grease from a dirty feeler gauge or excessive cam lubricant. Make sure the points align correctly. Proper alignment is also critical to longevity. Look at the points when they are closed; both sides should mate evenly. Then, check the gap at .015 on the high point of all 4 cam lobes.

Now, follow these steps:

1. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other on both sides of the open points. On the side closest to the cam, you should have continuity. Not on the other side! If you do, you will also have continuity everywhere because the points are grounded.

2. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity! Now, rotate the tang on the distributor....as the points open & close, you have continuity (closed) and lose it when they open.

3. Coil on, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other on the cam side of the open points. You should have continuity!

4. Coil on, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity!

At this point, I just put the distributor, coil & cap all back on the tractor as a unit. The reason I do this is because it is real easy to get the cap or coil mis-aligned trying to put it back together one piece at a time & the result is something gets broken or you get a ‘no spark’ problem.

It's possible to put it back on wrong & break it. Look at the slot on the end of the cam shaft. What ever angle it happens to be, turn the distributor tang to match it. Make sure you can tell the wide side from the narrow side on both the cam & distributor! (close counts) Then place the distributor on the front of the engine, gently push it in place & slowly turn the distributor body until you feel the tang slip into the slot. Rotate the distributor body until the bolt holes line up. Then, hand tighten the two bolts until the distributor body is flush w/ the timing gear cover.

Finally, double check your firing order & plug wires. It’s 1-2-4-3, counterclockwise. It’s very easy to cross 3 & 4.

Post back w/ results & any other questions.
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