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Ford 8N Won't Start/Sputter Negative to Ground

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SkyWil
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:54 pm    Post subject: Ford 8N Won't Start/Sputter Negative to Ground Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I have a 1952 Ford 8N w/ a front mounted distributor running on a 6 volt system. It sat for about 6 months and when I charged the battery I'm pretty sure I installed it negative to ground without thinking about it and ran it that way for a few days. The old M/S carb was pretty beat and kept causing issues so I replaced it with a cheaper aftermarket. When I put on the new carb (still running negative to ground) it ran really rough for about a minute and then died. Since then I could not even get it to Sputter. I now realize it's probably suppose to be positive to ground. Before I hook it back up positive to ground how do I polorize the generator? Also is there anything else I should check that I might have damaged?[/u]
 
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Dollar Bill
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:28 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 8N Won't Start/Sputter Negative to Ground Reply to specific post Reply with quote

SkyWil wrote:
Before I hook it back up positive to ground how do I polorize the generator?


Welcome to the board - Glad to have you!!!

With engine off, momentarily touch the BAT and ARM terminals on the voltage regulator - It's now polarized. But ground orientation isn't causing the run issues you describe.

How did it run before you swapped carburetors?

Any time you have a no start problem, check spark first. If you have spark, then check fuel delivery.

Spark Test: Remove one of the spark plugs and reconnect the spark plug wire. Turn on ignition and spin the engine over a few revolutions. You are looking for a bluish/white spark - Post back with results

Fuel Flow Test: Turn on fuel at COV and remove the drain plug from the bottom of the carburetor. The fuel should flow continuously with no dribbles. Observe fuel flow test long enough to evacuate the float bowl to measure the actual flow rate. Fuel flow is good if you get a cup of fuel within a minute.

Note: If the tractor has been sitting for some time, in all probability the gas has gone bad or has water in it.

For clarity, you have either a 1952 8N or a 1948, 1949 or early 1950 8N as the distributor moved from the front of the engine to the side mid-year 1950. Give us the serial number stamped on the engine and we'll help ID which tractor you have.
 
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Tim PloughNman Daley
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:09 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 8N Won't Start/Sputter Negative to Ground Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Welcome aboard. Yes, the entire wiring system needs to be verified. Battery needs to be tested, not just 'charged'. Distributor tuned up. Just a fun-fact on Ford Tractors: The front mount distributor was used beginning first with the 1939 9N model and up thru early 1950, to approximately s/n 8N-263843. It was April, 1950 Ford when revamped to the angle (side) mount distributor amongst other major changes. You can?t have a 1952 8N with a front mount distributor unless the engine was swapped out. OK; no matter, the important point is it has a front mount distributor. These N?s will run on positive ground or negative ground, but if inadvertently switched without polarizing the generator, then yes, you can have issues. You also made a rookie mistake of replacing parts without first doing a root cause problem solving procedure. If it wasn?t running right electrically, why swap out the carb? Besides, all major parts on these old Fords were designed to be rebuilt over and over. Most of the new, aftermarket parts made and sold today are pure junk. As a newbie, I suggest you invest in the essential manuals to help you better understand your tractor. A copy of the 8N Operator?s manual, the I&T F-04 manual, and the 39-53 MPC are vital learning tools. There is more to the OEM electrical system than just having a 6V battery. There is the 3-Wire/3-Brush generator, later changed to a 2-Brush unit; the Voltage Regulator; the AMMETER; the ignition Key Switch; the Ballast Resistor; the Coil; a good battery, the distributor properly tuned, and all wired correctly. Simply charging a battery does not ensure it is ?good?. How old is it? Have you had it tested under load? The battery is a vital part of the electrical system and you should start there. A battery must sustain a full charge under load in order to be effective. If the specific gravity falls low, it isn?t going to meet power requirements. You can check each cell with a hydrometer or take it to a local starter shop and they can bench test it. Many times these 8N generators are missing the tensioning arm and thus the fan belt is too loose and the unit will fail to charge. I can rebuild your OEM Marvel-Schebler carb ?email is open. Meantime here are some 8N wiring diagrams to use. Get the manuals, ask questions, and go slow. BTW, don't go by the OEM wire color codes, chances are your harness isn't original and ones made since hardly ever abide by the original colors. Colors don't conduct electrons. verify wiring via continuity test.

OEM 8N WIRING DIAGRAMS:




FORD 8N TRACTOR ESSENTIAL OWNER/OPERATOR/PARTS/SERVICE MANUALS:


Tim Daley(MI)
 
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souNdguy
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:46 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 8N Won't Start/Sputter Negative to Ground Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I agree with Dollar Bill. 99% sure that the ground polarity issue is not causing your problems. While there IS a difference in
the spark when you have a polarity mix up.. it is USUALLY negligible, and something you would need an O-scope to see. If your
machine will run pground and not nground, then you are so close to not running that you need to do more work.

Check your connections, points, etc. Dirty grounds , bad cables and ends, and loose and rusty connections will all rob power.
If your coil is more than 15-20 ys old or is an older dry type.. consider replacing it.

Post back.
 
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SkyWil
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 8N Won't Start/Sputter Negative to Ground Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Where exactly is the serial number stamped on the block? I was looking on the driver side below the head but i could only spot a stamp that had the characters, "386T486" stamped on it. Is that it or is the real serial number behind the oil filter or starter?

The tractor does have blue spark when i remove the plugs and ground them on the head. I had them all out and was trying to watch the firing order but it seemed a bit inconsistent; i just assumed it was a poor ground (Head is a bit rusty). I put a new carb on and decided not to rebuild the M/S because its getting to the point were its rusting, no longer smooth on any surface and was starting to flake off pieces. After i got it running again after it sat i put new gas in it and tried to blow out the M/S carb but it would only stay running if i had the choke rigged in a certain position. Thats how it remained running after it sat and i used it like that way for a few days because i needed it and didn't have a lot of other choices. I knew a aftermarket carb wasn't a great option but i figured it would be better then the M/S in its current condition. Before i switched to the new carb the old one i had thought clogged and stopped running on me. I then put the new one on and it ran rough for about a minute, i tried adjusting the main jet a bit and it died and never sputtered again. I did put on a new sediment bowl filter/gas valve on the tank and cleaned out everything gas related except i forgot to blow out the copper gas line. The negative ground was a after thought, im not sure how long i have been running it like that. Probably ever since i got it going again after its been sitting and im just realizing it now as im troubleshooting things and i mentioned it because it probably was positive ground when i got it initially. I haven't tested the battery i guess, i got it jan/2016 and i have let it sit a lot. When i charged it up it took over 12 hours and had 6.4 volts so i just imagined it was still in good shape.
 
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HFJ
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:15 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 8N Won't Start/Sputter Negative to Ground Reply to specific post Reply with quote


the serial number is on a raised boss at the top of the block, just below the head, and just aft of the mounting bracket for the oil filter canister.
 
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HFJ
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 8N Won't Start/Sputter Negative to Ground Reply to specific post Reply with quote



 
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SkyWil
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:49 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 8N Won't Start/Sputter Negative to Ground Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Ok that is what i was looking at but i can't decipher what is says.



 
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SkyWil
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 8N Won't Start/Sputter Negative to Ground Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Behind the dash by the choke would this be voltage regulator? Which contacts would i need to jump for pos/ground polarization?

 
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HFJ
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 8N Won't Start/Sputter Negative to Ground Reply to specific post Reply with quote


i'm reading 8N61486, which would place it in 1948.

this page is a great resource.
 
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HFJ
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:02 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 8N Won't Start/Sputter Negative to Ground Reply to specific post Reply with quote


PS: i should have said "which would place the engine in 1948."

the tractor itself can easily be a 52, engines get swapped a lot.
 
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SkyWil
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 8N Won't Start/Sputter Negative to Ground Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I cleaned out the M/S carb again and threw it back and still no sputter. Spark looks fine (Blue/White)and fuel flow out the carb drainage flows fast and looks good. I ran a compression check which didn't yield great results but it should be good enough to run yeah? Cyl 1: 95PSI Cyl 2:70 PSI Cyl 3: 75PSI Cyl 4: 79PSI.
 
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Dollar Bill
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:39 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 8N Won't Start/Sputter Negative to Ground Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-SkyWil wrote:
Behind the dash by the choke would this be voltage regulator? Which contacts would i need to jump for pos/ground polarization?


Yes, that is the voltage regulator. Wire colors in your harness do not coincide with original color coding but "BAT" should be the far left lug and the "ARM" is the center lug. The lug may be stamped and covered from view by the flag terminal connector.



"With engine off, momentarily touch the BAT and ARM terminals on the voltage regulator" Be careful not to flash the "FLD" lug as it will smoke the VR.



You may wish to compare JMOR's most excellent wiring diagram to your tractor:


 
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Dollar Bill
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:51 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 8N Won't Start/Sputter Negative to Ground Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-SkyWil wrote:
Spark looks fine (Blue/White)and fuel flow out the carb drainage flows fast and looks good.

You're missing something. The engine needs spark, fuel, and compression to run. You indicate that your have all three sides of the triangle. Even though your compression readings aren't the best, I agree with you it should attempt to fire.

Have you confirmed you're getting fuel to the combustion chamber? May give it a spray of starting fluid to see if it will catch.
 
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Tim PloughNman Daley
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:28 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 8N Won't Start/Sputter Negative to Ground Reply to specific post Reply with quote

FORD used a special set of hand stamps to ID engine blocks AFTER they passed QC Inspection/Break-in testing. Serial numbers used the STAR symbol (*) before and after the s/n. ALL 9N and 2N models used the '9N' prefix. ALL 8Ns used the 8N prefix. The capital letter "I" was used for the numeral "1". The lower case letter "b" was used for the numeral "6" and the inverted same was used for the numeral "9". That is an "I" on your s/n, not a "T". STARS were replaced by the diamond symbol when FORD went to cast iron sleeves. Never mind all that for now, and unless you plan on restoring your early 8N to all original, forget the s/n. What is important is if it has a front mount distributor or angle (side) mount, 6V/POS GRN or a 12/NEG GRN switch out job, early or late steering box, POSITION CONTROL, and possibly a few other things like a Proofmeter. Carb can be blasted and or ran thru a tumbler to remove old surface rust, besides outside rust has nothing to do with how the inside is. Did you try to rebuild it? Did you set the float correctly? Blowing air into the carb while mounted is a bad idea as you can damage the float. A 'new' battery means practically nothing. They can be junk out the door. Leave the guesswork to lottery ticket buying and the imagining to your pipedreams. Do things logically. Get a good brand of battery (East Penn, DEKA, INTERSTATE) and avoid the bargain hoius3e brands, they have poor lifespans. Have the battery tested for specific gravity, under load, to verify it will sustain a full charge. While battery is out getting tested, go thru the entire wiring system. No shortcuts, it is either right or wrong.

FoMoCo SERIAL NUMBER HAND STAMPS:


Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)
 
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