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Ford 861 power master charging issues

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:33 pm    Post subject: Ford 861 power master charging issues Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I own a 1957 Powermaster 861 and I am having issues with it charging . I checked the generators output and I am getting 1.5 volts. I put a brand new voltage regulator and my non charging indicator light stays illuminated. I verified it is not charging by using my volt meter . No matter what rpm range the engine is at I get no voltage increase at the battery . The tractors wiring is all in good shape , I got a pretty blue spark and click while polarizing. I have searched the forum and read and tested now I am at my threshold .


Positive to ground 6v system
Battery full charges and good operating condition
Wiring appears to be in good shape
Generator output 1.5 volts
 
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Ridge Pole
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Make sure that new voltage regulator has a good ground to the frame of the tractor.
 
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Ridge Pole wrote:
(quoted from post at 20:11:52 01/19/19) Make sure that new voltage regulator has a good ground to the frame of the tractor.


I made sure of that by sanding the contact points and checking
Continuity . I am out of ideas???
 
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Apache_58
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues Reply to specific post Reply with quote

First thing is to test the generator. Forget about everything else.
This test has to be fully completed before messing with anything else. Don’t go replacing what might be a quality regulator with a cheap $15 regulator just to try for an easy fix. When you fry your $200 battery and burn your tractor to the ground (because of a cheapo regulator), it will not seem like such a good deal.


Watch this video
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RjLW_eb3D-c

Follow the instructions carefully. If it fails the tests, either take the generator apart and look for easy fixes (like worn brushes ), or buy a new one. You may have to swap over some parts..maybe not, so be careful about turning the old one in for a core too quickly.

When motor tested, it should spin vigorously like a motor, not just slowly or weakly.

If it spins vigorously, test the output capacity. The video covers this as well.

If the capacity tests good then report back and we can go from there.
 
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues Reply to specific post Reply with quote


I kind of went the wrong route when fixing my charging system and didn’t isolate the generator from the system and fully tested it. Had I done that I would have fixed it much sooner. Some advice here was if it spins, 99% of the time it’s the regulator.

Not true - it will spin weakly while still being faulty. That was what threw me off.

Other problems I had...after exposing a little more of the wiring loom and checking colors against the wiring diagram, someone previously had hooked the regulator wires up wrong. The colors might be hard to see. I scratched some off with a pocket knife and took a photo of it with my phone and zoomed in. A magnifying glass would work too...but first test that generator and report back.
 
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Is your tractor supposed to be positive ground?

Of course pay attention to that positive ground issue when watching that video. Mine system was negative ground.
 
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sunbeam
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Full field the generator jumper the field term to the armiture term start tractor and check voltage. Voltage should increase with RPM no increase generator increase regulator.
 
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Is your tractor supposed to be positive ground?

Of course pay attention to that positive ground issue when watching that video. Mine system was negative ground.
 
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Apache_58
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues Reply to specific post Reply with quote


I kind of went the wrong route when fixing my charging system and didn’t isolate the generator from the system and fully tested it. Had I done that I would have fixed it much sooner. Some advice here was if it spins, 99% of the time it’s the regulator.

Not true - it will spin weakly while still being faulty. That was what threw me off.

Other problems I had...after exposing a little more of the wiring loom and checking colors against the wiring diagram, someone previously had hooked the regulator wires up wrong. The colors might be hard to see. I scratched some off with a pocket knife and took a photo of it with my phone and zoomed in. A magnifying glass would work too...but first test that generator and report back.
 
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Tim PloughNman Daley
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:25 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I believe you have incorrect wiring and are troubleshooting wrong. 1.5 Volts? You'd need to check the VR to see volts. The generator output is 20 AMPS. The Voltage Regulator specs are: Cutout Closing Voltage = 6.0 - 6.6 VOLTS; Voltage Limiter = 7.1 - 7.5 VOLTS; cutout opening current (reverse) = 6 AMPS maximum. Do you have a copy of the I&T/CLYMER F-20 Manual? Is the fan belt tight? Often the belt tensioner is neglected and a sloppy belt will never allow the generator to perform/charge correctly. I also concur with the other few who say that just replacing parts on a whim is not very logical. One needs to perform a true root cause problem solving method to determine if a part is defective before replacing. Chances are your old VR is perfectly fine. You say, "...wiring appears good.." It's good to do a visual inspection on all wires to verify connections are made and that the insulation isn't cracked and weathered, but, there is more to just that. You must verify that the system is WIRED CORRECTLY and for that you need an OEM schematic/diagram detailing which wire goes where. Don't assume they are and don't go by colors. Colors do not conduct electrons and most aftermarket wiring harnesses today do not follow the OEM color codes. Continuity testing is the key -not idiot test lights. You can use a test light, which requires power, once you have verified the wires are all going to where they are supposed to be. Your generator output should be 20 amps. The F-20 Manual has a motoring test procedure. It will also determine if the VR is good or bad. When running, does the ammeter show a charge or discharge? The dash lamp warning could very well be a bad wiring, not a non-charging issue. Start with the basic things. If you have lights in the circuit, disconnect them for now, once root cause is determined you can reconnect them: (1) Verify Wiring is all correct (2) perform generator motoring test if no issues found at step #1 (3) tune-up -be sure distributor has been tuned correctly, meaning points set and ignition timed (4) ensure the battery is good -it must sustain a full charge under load. Simply attaching a charger does not do that. Get it checked at a starter/alternator shop. Once back running, invest in a Battery Tender? to keep it ready to go when not in use.

Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)
*9N653I* & *8NI55I3*

I & T F 20 MANUAL

 
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Larry NCKS
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:25 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Don't let us lead you astray! I see lots of erroneous advise in the replies to this post.

1. Yes this tractor as it came from the factory, even though an 861 was not produced as a '57 model, is a 6V positive ground.

2. Voltage can be checked anywhere in the electrical system! Generator, regulator, wiring, battery; it doesn't matter. Once you've verified that your voltage is not correct, full field your generator. Check the results at the generator armature terminal.
 
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:29 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Tim PloughNman Dal wrote:
(quoted from post at 06:25:06 01/20/19) I believe you have incorrect wiring and are troubleshooting wrong. 1.5 Volts? You'd need to check the VR to see volts. The generator output is 20 AMPS.


Tim, where do you get these crazy ideas? Voltage can be checked anywhere in the electrical system. It's actually best to check it at the generator first, to ascertain whether the generator is working properly!
 
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:34 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Apache_58 wrote:
(quoted from post at 23:09:22 01/19/19)
Is your tractor supposed to be positive ground?


Until 1965, all non-diesel engine Ford tractors came from the factory as 6 volt positive ground systems.

If you have a pre-65 gasoline engine Ford tractor that is negative ground, it's either been modified . . . or someone didn't know what they were doing when replacing the battery!
 
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:51 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The manual I have said 1957 so I Assumed is was a 57 model . I will look for a serial number and look it up somehow.

I just got the tractor and the battery was hooked up negative ground and hasnt charged a battery in over 30 years according to the owners dad bought it new on the 50s. They kept a battery tender on it all these years .

I will start digging through the system , I wanted to keep the originality of it being a 6v as the tractor isnt a work horse anymore.

Wiring is as followed on VR

BAT to resistor block
ARM to armature on generator
Field to field on generator
Ground on VR mounting tab to Generator Ground lug


I will follow all of these suggestions and report back.
 
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:37 am    Post subject: Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Did you follow the Type-A or Type-B polarization procedure?
 
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