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Rustoleum on top of Tisco?

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Irish_Jake
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 7:14 am    Post subject: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I'm painting a trailer to match my tractor, and after priming and 12 cans of Tisco's Ford Vermillion Red I'm still in need of another coat or two. Rather than waiting to get more Tisco shipped, I'm considering grabbing Rustoleum Ford Red from the nearest tractor supply. Two questions - how close will the color be, and can I put one on top of the other without adverse effects?
 
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Stephen Newell
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 10:46 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Difficult to say if the Rustoleum would lift the Tisco or not. I looked for a MSDS sheet on it and couldn't find one to see what is in it. The strongest solvents in the Rustoleum are acetone and toluene. If you can find out if the Tisco has these solvents then it would probably be alright. Look at the instructions on the Tisco. If it says anything like put all the coats on in an hour or wait seven days or something like that it has a recoat window. To put another full coat on after the paint has dried will require you to scuff sand it whether you use the Tisco again or Rustoleum. This would extend that recoat window a second week. The scratches in the surface caused by sanding will allow the solvents to penetrate more and can get under it.

The color should match well enough you could use it on one tractor. It just might not work if you sprayed part of a panel with two different brands of paint.
 
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paintron
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I ve noticed that there is a paradigm in the aftermarket painting industry that everything must be abraded before a coating can be applied. There is two types of adhesion mechanical and chemical. Mechanical is based on friction and is somewhat limited. Chemical can be immensely strong and is the reason you cannot walk through walls, pull a metal bar apart etc. Most adhesives rely on what is called hydrogen bonding or Van der vaals forces.
There are various recognized tests that can be performed for adhesion, cross hatch, Olsen. Reverse impact, t-bend, and others. Unfortunately these are all destructive so not possible to do on a finished product. A lot of what is passed off as adequate adhesion is actually rather tenuous which is evident when the painted part is stressed in some way, bent, flexed, knocked.
I m currently employed on a coil coating line, occasionally we need to repaint a coil. Never have I ever seen a scuffing operation performed prior to repainting. The trick is to know what finish is compatible with what other. This is why epoxies and urethanes make for good primers.
Scuffing in itself won t hurt unless it interferes with the surface tension of the coating. You need to use very fine sand paper to make this an issue.
The main issue with painting a second coat over an existing coat is colour control, so a primer between them alleviates this or you have to have the coating specifically tinted to compensate.
 
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Irish_Jake
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 6:22 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I ended up going ahead and giving it a shot and it worked out fine - Rustoleum and Tisco use the same solvent and it appeared to adhere well without any sanding a couple of hours after the original coat.

A note for anyone looking at those paint brands in the future - Tisco is more red, Rustoleum is more orange. They're not close enough to match next to each other, but painting one on top of the other blended fine after a full coat.
 
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yakob
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 6:27 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

paintron wrote:
(quoted from post at 09:19:58 05/06/19) I ve noticed that there is a paradigm in the aftermarket painting industry that everything must be abraded before a coating can be applied. There is two types of adhesion mechanical and chemical. Mechanical is based on friction and is somewhat limited. Chemical can be immensely strong and is the reason you cannot walk through walls, pull a metal bar apart etc. Most adhesives rely on what is called hydrogen bonding or Van der vaals forces.
There are various recognized tests that can be performed for adhesion, cross hatch, Olsen. Reverse impact, t-bend, and others. Unfortunately these are all destructive so not possible to do on a finished product. A lot of what is passed off as adequate adhesion is actually rather tenuous which is evident when the painted part is stressed in some way, bent, flexed, knocked.
I m currently employed on a coil coating line, occasionally we need to repaint a coil. Never have I ever seen a scuffing operation performed prior to repainting. The trick is to know what finish is compatible with what other. This is why epoxies and urethanes make for good primers.
Scuffing in itself won t hurt unless it interferes with the surface tension of the coating. You need to use very fine sand paper to make this an issue.
The main issue with painting a second coat over an existing coat is colour control, so a primer between them alleviates this or you have to have the coating specifically tinted to compensate.


You will not get any adhesion with these products coating over a cured gloss surface, thus the scuffing. This is following label directions and using the products as designed in any case that I have seen. Good luck complaining to a company about an adhesion issue if you do it to yourself by averting their process.

You're speaking from an industry that has entirely different paradigms and needs.

Why do you need to repaint coils?
 
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rob in nh
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 8:36 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Spray a test panel and see how the other paint matches. As far as recoating either wait a week or test spray an area of the tongue and see how it reacts to the paint you put on first. I've been painting for 40 years and one of my paint reps had a good saying, "If you can't convince em, confuse em".
 
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paintron
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 4:27 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The chemistry of an acrylic, polyester, urethane etc. is the same whether its pre or post painted. The manufactures of the aftermarket know you cannot detect adhesion
issues easily without destructive testing. Mechanical adhesion is better than no adhesion thereby no claim.

In OEM post paint the biggest concern is dirt. So scuffing is a no no especially in the paint shop. When I was in appliance they would just scuff the defect area to
remove the defect and then rehang the part for repainting. In automotive they would use their version of an aftermarket no bake coating scuff the defect out and apply.
The scuffing was to remove the defect not improve adhesion.

In regards to why would coils be repainted, occasionally usually on the off shifts errors would be made. Paint would be over reduced causing off colour, starving which
the inspector would catch at the end of the process or various other issues which would require repainting. A twenty ton coil would be painted in twenty minutes and
occasionally mistakes happen.
 
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Stephen Newell
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 4:29 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

At least one of them is the wrong color then. They are suppose to match factory spec's where a person could use the paint for touch up.
 
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Irish_Jake
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 5:35 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Stephen Newell wrote:
(quoted from post at 05:29:06 05/08/19) At least one of them is the wrong color then. They are suppose to match factory spec's where a person could use the paint for touch up.


Search before posting this it looks like all the brands vary just a bit, based on others feedback.
 
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yakob
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 5:47 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-paintron wrote:
(quoted from post at 07:27:03 05/08/19) The chemistry of an acrylic, polyester, urethane etc. is the same whether its pre or post painted. The manufactures of the aftermarket know you cannot detect adhesion
issues easily without destructive testing. Mechanical adhesion is better than no adhesion thereby no claim.

In OEM post paint the biggest concern is dirt. So scuffing is a no no especially in the paint shop. When I was in appliance they would just scuff the defect area to
remove the defect and then rehang the part for repainting. In automotive they would use their version of an aftermarket no bake coating scuff the defect out and apply.
The scuffing was to remove the defect not improve adhesion.

In regards to why would coils be repainted, occasionally usually on the off shifts errors would be made. Paint would be over reduced causing off colour, starving which
the inspector would catch at the end of the process or various other issues which would require repainting. A twenty ton coil would be painted in twenty minutes and
occasionally mistakes happen.


I'm standing here reading this as though you are saying there is no point in scuffing a previous coating in order to add another coat of something. Is that correct? You are saying that it should only be used to remove/feather out the defect area? Can you clarify? I can't tell if you are just sharing a story from your experience or if you are making a general claim.

Regarding your mention of the term "adhesion issues"...Can you define what you consider an "adhesion issue"? This is one of the points I keep trying to get back to - what is considered an adhesion issue on something that is going to get worked after coating (i.e. coils) is a vastly different paradigm and irrelevant to a rigid tractor frame, etc.

You said it yourself "you cannot detect adhesion issues easily without destructive testing"...If this is true then they are NOT adhesion issues to begin with in their respective application. "I bet if you folded your tractor hood in half, the paint would fall right off"...ok...good thing I'm not going to do that!

Adhesion issues WILL crop up on a previous, cured surface that has not been cleaned and scuffed properly. This is absolutely not debatable under the paradigm of common automotive refinishing products. I hope the statement you made before is not an attempt to make a claim counter to this as that would be misleading.

Likely for the OP here, scuffing is not going to gain anything without some serious time lapse; Rattle cans dry out very slowly. Depending on how long the first coats have dried, I'd be more worried about scuffing just gumming up and peeling it and/or the next coat lifting. I wouldn't use them in the first place on anything but a TV mount or something like that...You'd probably need an honest 10 to 15 coats to get any film build (that estimate is just a hypothesis based on experience, but am curious how many it would actually take!). They will only give you so good of a finish...so worrying about the nitty-gritty details isn't going to gain you much...
 
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Irish_Jake
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 5:53 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

For the record - I didn't scuff Smile I was slightly outside the recoat window - 3 hours after my last spray vs less than 1 - but I'm painting a trailer and it seems to be sticking just fine so wasn't looking for perfection here.

That said you all are having a different discussion at this point so don't let me get in the way.
 
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rob in nh
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 8:38 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

[quote="Irish_Jake"](reply to post at 06:53:55 05/08/19) [/quote You shouldn't have any problems, that type of paint takes a lot of time to harden up.
 
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Stephen Newell
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

If you are wishing to know if you have adhesion problems with what you have done allow the finish to cure a month and press a piece of masking tape hard on the finish and then lift it off. If there is any serious adhesion problems the tape will remove the paint.
 
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paintron
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 4:30 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

This section of this site is about asking for and as a consequence receiving advice on painting. As a contributor with considerable experience and a significant
education in this area the advice given will be based on best available science. If the recipient or any other follower of the thread wants to follow or ignore the
advice it is their personal choice, I will take no personal offence either way.

Every industry has their own version of what is considered adequate adhesion, automotive likes the crosshatch adhesion test which I suspect agriculture (Tractors)
would also prefer. Coating removal via flexing due to vibration during use would be the failure mode they are most likely trying to avoid.
Coil coating has the most stringent adhesion requirement as the substrate is expected to be roll formed, or stamped which could entail bending, stretching, and or
punching.

Either way why except mediocrity when excellence is so easy to obtain.

I was told years ago the way we make ink for our prints is not possible by our coating supplier's. We now have a monopoly with our prints and our competitors have been
unable to figure out what we are doing differently, so much for paradigms.

I have a plaque on my desk that stats "You Can Agree With Me Or You Can Be Wrong".
 
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yakob
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 5:14 am    Post subject: Re: Rustoleum on top of Tisco? Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-paintron wrote:
(quoted from post at 07:30:57 05/09/19) This section of this site is about asking for and as a consequence receiving advice on painting. As a contributor with considerable experience and a significant
education in this area the advice given will be based on best available science. If the recipient or any other follower of the thread wants to follow or ignore the
advice it is their personal choice, I will take no personal offence either way.

Every industry has their own version of what is considered adequate adhesion, automotive likes the crosshatch adhesion test which I suspect agriculture (Tractors)
would also prefer. Coating removal via flexing due to vibration during use would be the failure mode they are most likely trying to avoid.
Coil coating has the most stringent adhesion requirement as the substrate is expected to be roll formed, or stamped which could entail bending, stretching, and or
punching.

Either way why except mediocrity when excellence is so easy to obtain.

I was told years ago the way we make ink for our prints is not possible by our coating supplier's. We now have a monopoly with our prints and our competitors have been
unable to figure out what we are doing differently, so much for paradigms.

I have a plaque on my desk that stats "You Can Agree With Me Or You Can Be Wrong".


Same here. Just sharing experience and knowledge.

Is a scuffing a surface leading to mediocrity or not? I had some legitimate questions about what your process entails that seem counter intuitive with reality. Your posts legitimately come off as "don't scuff it is a waste of time" and that sir is FALSE in so many occasions. This along with a failure to at least acknowledge some compatibility issues with certain primers over other products you tout makes me highly skeptical of your advice. These products are designed with the science you keep bringing up but for some reason your science is better? So are we supposed to follow labels or just throw them out the door?

Define "mediocre." Again...you don't put 10-ply tires on a Chevy Cavalier "because they are better"...it's an entirely different use case from an F350...
 
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