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64 Ford 4000 overheated and blew rad cap off

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Dirtsmith
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:41 am    Post subject: 64 Ford 4000 overheated and blew rad cap off Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Two days ago, I thought my worst problem was needing to fix the hydraulics.

Yesterday, my new worst problem happened when I was moving rocks (that I collected for a project) from the area where I wanted to put manure composting pile.

I was working the tractor pretty hard, I was moving 3-man boulders. (Maybe I overloaded a ridiculously large bucket...)

Somewhere along the way, I heard a noise that sounded like the fan blades hitting something. Shortly after that, I saw my radiator cap shoot into the air, followed by a blade from the fan shooting out of the bottom, and of course, a bunch of coolant pooling underneath the tractor. There was no sign of the belt, perhaps it is still attached, I'll check sometime this morning.

A few months earlier, the tractor was given a clean bill of health by a long time Ford tractor mechanic. Up to this point, it seems to have run well.

Looking at other posts, I saw something that got me to thinking about root causes.

There is thread here on YT Forums, where an 801 (or 821) owner, had an overheating problem. The condition of the belt that runs the fan and drives the power steering pump came into question.

I have persistent power steering leak issues. The most relevant issue to this overheating problem has been fluid leaking from the reservoir at the seals between the reservoir and the pump body.

What is the chance that fluid got onto the belt and caused the issue that would lead to a fan blade hitting something?

An oily belt, particularly at higher RPM's, could certainly be reason for the belt to slip and go bad. The loader pump seems to need higher RPM's as the loader struggles to lift when I am running the engine a lower speeds. When I am using the loader, I do run the engineer at higher RPM's. Otherwise, when I am pulling something or using a implement, I run it at lower speeds. I have not used this tractor for brush hogging. The tractor spends most of its time in 1st gear. A previous owner removed the Sherman so that is not directly an issue.

As always, I appreciate your time and help.
 
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Larry NCKS
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:18 am    Post subject: Re: 64 Ford 4000 overheated and blew rad cap off Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Dirtsmith wrote:
(quoted from post at 06:41:24 10/10/19) .


My guess is that either your water pump failed causing the fan to disintegrate, or the fan itself failed. This likely is the root of your cooling system problems.

Does your loader run off a crankshaft mounted front pump . . . or does it run off the pump that runs your 3 pt.?
 
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Ultradog MN
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:18 am    Post subject: Re: 64 Ford 4000 overheated and blew rad cap off Reply to specific post Reply with quote

So give us a hint.
Did the fan actually come off??
The whole thing or just one blade?
If the whole fan came off it's most
likely because your water pump failed.
That would have nothing to do with your
belt or power steering nor much to do
with your loader or how hard you were
working the tractor or what you were
doung with it.
It might have something to do with
ignoring a persistent leak of coolant
from the water pump tho. Did you notice
any of that?
Tell us what actually happened. Where is
the fan now and are all the blades
intact? Then we collectively can get
down to theories and speculation as to
what actually happened.
 
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Dirtsmith
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:29 am    Post subject: Re: 64 Ford 4000 overheated and blew rad cap off Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Hi Larry,

The loader runs off of a front mounted pump. It is separate system from the hydraulics.
 
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sotxbill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:47 am    Post subject: Re: 64 Ford 4000 overheated and blew rad cap off Reply to specific post Reply with quote


One possible explanation....

The heavy over weight boulders make something flex in the frame/loader,,,, and the radiator got pushed back into the fan... and nature took its course.
 
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Dirtsmith
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:15 am    Post subject: Re: 64 Ford 4000 overheated and blew rad cap off Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Hi Ultradog,

The system showed no evidence of recent or current radiator leaks. When tractor was in the shop for an over-all inspection after I took ownership, the old radiator cap was replaced with a new part, and that new part is rated for 4 pounds.

If there was a coolant leak prior to when I became the owner, I cannot be certain. There is a greasy mess in the loader mount frame under the front mounted pump. It appears there was a leak at some time, but I am not certain if there is anything more than hydraulic fluid residue that I am seeing.

The fan itself is attached still, however when I rotated the fan to snap a picture of the broken blade, I could feel, and see, the fan hitting the frame.

So, I am wondering now if something has come loose and caused the fans to slip out of position. I could not get a view of how or where the fan connects, but looking at the two manuals I have, the FO-20 and the Ford Tractor Shop manual the covers Models 600 - 1801, it appears as you suggested, this issue could be related to the water pump.

This picture rotated counter-clockwise 90 degrees, but it shows the pump for the hydraulics and where the fan is hitting the frame.


This photo mysteriously rotated 180 degrees, but it is showing where the fan blade is mounted to the front of the engine.

 
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riveroadrat
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: 64 Ford 4000 overheated and blew rad cap off Reply to specific post Reply with quote

It looks like your fan is hitting your front axle in the pic. Axle pin might be gone past serviceability.
 
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Dirtsmith
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:40 am    Post subject: Re: 64 Ford 4000 overheated and blew rad cap off Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Hi RRR, axel pin, is that a pivot point that holds the front axel to the frame?

I am looking at my service manual, there appears to be a few steps involved, and that is not an insignificant part either.

Is there any type of visual inspection or another sort of test I can administer to see if that is where I should focus?
 
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lastcowboy32
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: 64 Ford 4000 overheated and blew rad cap off Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Dirtsmith wrote:
(quoted from post at 09:40:02 10/10/19)
Hi RRR, axel pin, is that a pivot point that holds the front axel to the frame?

I am looking at my service manual, there appears to be a few steps involved, and that is not an insignificant part either.

Is there any type of visual inspection or another sort of test I can administer to see if that is where I should focus?


Maybe undo the fan belt.

See if the water pump bearings failed and the fan now has some slop in it. Maybe that's why it's pulled down into the frame.

That would be best case scenario, from what it looks like. The bearings fail, the fan shaft gets loose, the fan hits the frame and now the belt slips, no fan, no water pump, engine overheats.

If the water pump bearings and fan are still straight and tight, then look at the axle pin. That could easily be worn, especially if you're using a bucket heavily. A worn or broken axle pin could change the position of the engine block and fan, relative to the frame.

What I don't know is how any of that changes when you have that front mount hydraulic pump.

I'm not sure if that pump's shaft goes through where the axle pin used to go... or if you will have a pump shaft and an axle pin. That's where the old time ford mechanics here in the forum and your manual should be able to help you out.

What I do know is that I've read more than a few posts here about how hard that axle pin, king pin, whatever you want to call it, can be to get out. I also remember that the failure mechanisim for when that goes is just like you describe. Instant damage to the fan/radiator/cooling system.
 
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Dirtsmith
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 64 Ford 4000 overheated and blew rad cap off Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Thank you for your thoughts Cowboy. I am looking, and trying to figure this out still. Looking at my manuals - the best I can figure out is that it appears that pump shaft runs right through the pivot pin.

That must be one tough pin to be hollow and take that kind of weight and force on it!

If there is an old-time ford mechanic that can speak to this issue, I sure do want to hear from him as well.

As it is right now. My fan blades hit the frame and the radiator is empty. I will report back here what happens when I pour water into the radiator. I would be absolutely shocked if it is only the fan blade that is damaged (I do not see how it could only be the fan blade.)

Here is the pictures of what I can see.

This photo is (rotated ccw 90 deg) showing a picture of the pump shaft going through the pivot pin. Should those splines be visible?


(This photo did not rotate when it was imported.) It seems to be clearly evident that the pump shaft runs through the pivot pin.


Again, rotatied c cw 90 deg, in this picture I am showing that the shaft appears to be resting on the bottom of the hole it passes through. It seems like that shaft should be centered more than it is shown here.



Thanks for looking. I appreciate what you guys can say about what you see.
 
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riveroadrat
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 64 Ford 4000 overheated and blew rad cap off Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Your axle bushing is probably worn also. If you use a torch to heat up the pin (stay away from your radiator or remove it) you can stick a
long candle to the threaded area and the wax will wick into the threads. I had to weld a thick piece of 1/2" wall tube to my pin and use a
bar about 6 feet long to remove it. You have the heavy duty front axle so make sure you get the right pin and bushing for that axle.
 
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Dirtsmith
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: 64 Ford 4000 overheated and blew rad cap off Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Thank you RRR. I appreciate your information.

I am getting hung-up on now this "whole thing" goes together, perhaps you can help me understand.

It appears that the pump shaft runs through the pivot pin and this is where I am having my issue.

Is the pivot pin hollow, which allows a rotating shaft to run through it? Or is it a the solid shaft that acts both as pivot pin and is also the power in-put to the pump (which seems very unlikely), sleeved by a bushing that takes up all of the force where the frame and axle come together?

It seems like that the weight of the loader bucket, the frame and hydraulic rams and the armature to hold and control the bucket not to mention just the weight of the front-end of the tractor itself, is a huge amount of weight to be resting on one pin or bushing.

Can you, or anyone here, explain to me how this actually works?

If the pump shaft is going to be able to rotate freely to power the pump, I can't see how it can have that much weight on it. On the same token, that also seems like an incredible amount of weight for a single bushing as well.

I must be missing something, because this does not add up for me.
 
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RobCons
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 64 Ford 4000 overheated and blew rad cap off Reply to specific post Reply with quote

You've got it. Pin is a tube. Shaft for pump goes through it and rotates with crank shaft since it is attached to it.
 
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Dirtsmith
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: 64 Ford 4000 overheated and blew rad cap off Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Water is not supposed to leak out of the side of this fins.

I could be wrong, but this looks like a leak.

(I am not sure why the photo is rotated, but that radiator fluid was actually falling 'down', not 'sideways' as the photo might suggest.)

So, I am certain I have two parts to replace so far:
fan
radiator

 
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Dirtsmith
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 64 Ford 4000 overheated and blew rad cap off Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hi All,

This problem is not yet resolved. I let it go over the winter time; I was kind of hoping that it might have fixed itself over the winter. It did not, oh well.

So, today, I was able to remove a plate that protects the hydraulic pump from damage. It looks like with this plate removed, I have very good access to the pump (and pump shaft, and pivot pin and pivot bushing).

What I am trying to figure out is the least amount of stuff I need to unbolt from the tractor to get to the parts I need to check.

With that said, it seems to reason that I should take as much pressure off the axle as I can. To do that, I blocked up the tractor under the transmission housing and got the front end off the ground enough for the axle to freely move up and down. (I am not sure that this was necessary or not, but I did it so yay-me!)

My thinking is that by raising the front, I am giving myself a better chance of being able to free the pump as I will be fighting less friction when loosening the bolts I need to get to in order to access the pivot and bushing.

I will need to drain the FEL hydraulic fluid; I finally found the lowest point in the system, it is at the bottom of the frame, under the pump. That is a plus.

My bottom line is that I am still trying to figure out what direction I need go in to get make this repair happen.
 
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