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New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking.

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jhncp
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:47 am    Post subject: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I want to figure out as much as I can B4 pulling head for 3rd time especially since head gasket cost $350. When I put air pressure in injection hole #1 it's easily leaking into coolant ( and prably slow drip into cylinder). Is there a way I can pinpoint where it's leaking if its head gasket or possibly cracked head by filling water jacket at 1/8" increments and testing or other ideas? I bought a inspection camera but think it was a big waste of money. Also is there any chance of it sealing if I retorque head with engine hot at Max 130 ft lb? Or will it make gasket less likely to reuse. I retirqued at 120 with engine cold since it requires taking rocker shaft off. Also how critical is the fire ring for sealing and does it butt tight and against head or have slight gap? I replaced the sleeves and it is a new head gasket. The #1 only fires when under a load warmed up so theres a pretty big loss of compression. No chance of hitting at high idle.
 
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rustred
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

don't have eye's on the project and don't know how and what was actually done. but yes a retorque is a must when hot. have u checked the sleeve stand out? must be the same throughout. guessing at a spec of .007 max. that is how the fire ring seals. pretty sure the head gasket is reuseable if you just put it on. but need to check it also. did you have the head magnafluxed and valves done? plus is block and head spotless clean and flat? plus is this an old problem or came up once assembled? if it was leaking like you say you would not keep the cap on it would basically blow the coolant out the overflow. requires a tear down and close inspection as the leaking spot will show. could also be a crack.
 
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pete 23
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:47 am    Post subject: Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I will try to avoid controversy here. Not easy sometimes. I do not believe your idea will work to raise coolant level a little at a time.

I believe you are doomed and have to pull head again. You have two potential problems. Cracked eroded head or (very likely) head gasket not sealing on sleeve flange. Flange too low or too high or wrong gasket. Like I indicated before, mix ups on those gaskets has been a problem .

Maybe Slater will chime in. Very knowlegable.
 
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jhncp
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

It had been a problem on #1 for many years with low compression but I was certain it was the rings. (I put all new rings in). I thought the sleeve flange above head deck looked good. Does the gasket mainly seal on sleeve flange or does it also seal on block? (Referring to the ring on the gasket) also how much does the fire ring on the sleeve do?
 
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jhncp
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

What is your comment on rustred saying a retorque is a must when hot. I only retorqued cold
 
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D Slater
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:33 am    Post subject: Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Unless I have my pictures mixed up, Think your gasket should fit like this and sleeve also for D-281 IH parts. If wrong I would need to go out and look at what I have to refresh memory. Search number 261339R92 or 87427495 for a upper gasket set. Have found them around 200 sometimes. Stieners shows a set for 220. Don't know what gasket they use. Dealer price should be less than 300. Maybe not much. Think I would remove head and have it pressure tested and go from there unless you can see were the head gasket leaked. Probably would still pressure check.

 
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jhncp
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

If it is leaking out the head gasket how will I see that with close examination with head off? (Assuming the head gasket will prably still be intact)
 
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pete 23
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I always retorqued after warming engine. Also, if you remove rockers, you need to run it a minute or two after adjusting the valve clearance as you will be sure to have one or two that change considerably.
 
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the tractor vet
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Like pete said . and i will agree with him . Ya know it is really hard for us to give perfect answers since we are not there with hands on . Here is what i would be checking and would have done the first time the head came off. First i would have had the head pressure tested HOT , not many places will do this as i had to teach the guy that does my machine work now since my buddy passed away . The NEw way they do it at most all shops at times does not show a leak BUT you heat it up and some times they look like old faithful . Next i would have a true straight edge on that block and checking the sleeves for proper settings . Next up are you 100% sure your torque wrench is dead on , when was the last time you had it recalibrated ?? Now had you said that you were getting water on number 2 or 3 then i would be looking for a cracked block down in the bore on both of them as this is sorta common . Some times you will have a miss that goes along with a cracked head or block . Your working on a tractor that is probably older then you are and sometimes it takes us old farts that have been there and done that to weed out problems . Myself i had a 450 D many moons ago that when i bought it it had issues that needed sorted out . They have not made parts for that engine for a long time and other then NOS parts you have a problem finding parts . Victor Gskt made the org. head gskt along with all the rest . If you were in my back yard then i could come and take a look and see and know more as to your problem but looking at pictures really does not tell me much.
 
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rustred
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I think you need to get some experience and tools on engine overhauls. I also agree with pete and the vet. where did u come up with the thing about a cold retorque.? how can u just eye up sleeve stand out.?? I overhauled a super wd6, same basic engine, in the late 1970's when I was about 20 years old. i put the head gasket on dry and started the tractor and she was leaking water out from the gasket. I run it to operating temp. retorqued the head and she never leaked after that. I am using this as an example as you questioning retorquing hot. how else are you to do it? by the time you get the valve cover off and rocker the engine is not burn your hands workable. it appears you have skipped many steps. I been working on these old ih engines all my life. my posting is not pulled out of the sky, .. but hands on stuff. what works and what don't.
 
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rustred
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:24 pm    Post subject: Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

the fire ring is the most important part in the head gasket. it seals the combustion from the cyl's. plus the gasket has to seal the antifreeze between head and block, plus also has to seal the oil passages. so its function is sealing three things. so you want to buy a good gasket . you want surfaces spotless and FLAT. that is my explanation of the gasket. so have you checked the compression to know that it is low on #1 cyl.??? usually valves are more to do with a noticeable loss of compression . when u have the head off take the gasket and place it on the block and look things over to answer your question about the fire rings and sleeves. there is tell tale signs left behind of the leakages.
 
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jhncp
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:08 am    Post subject: Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I always retorqued head bolts on a 560d when hot but on this one since the rocker has to come off I just rechecked torque when cold after I had a few drops of antifreeze come out oil plug. Plus I didn't know if it was really nessecary on a 450 since it has big studs with fine threaded nut and so many of them and a high torque to begin with. Seems a lot more beefed up than a 560. I just know the flange was a few thousanths above head deck.
 
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:10 am    Post subject: Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Thanks for the tip head should be hot to test. That might be a key. I plan on retorquing when hot but most likely will be pulling head this weekend. I imagine its unlikely the hot retorque will resolve it if it's leaking that bad ah?
 
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the tractor vet
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:41 pm    Post subject: Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

YUP , myself like i said earlier i would be looking else where for the problem . You can also use the poor man magnflux test looking for cracks and that is clean up the head nice and clean then with a can of starting fluid spray the head down and watch as it dries any crack will stay wet longer . You can make up your own pressure test of your head with making up blocking plates and rubber sheet gskt material and a way of clamping them over the water passages and a blocking plate to cover the thermostat housing once you remove it and you make a adapter so you can fill with water and apply air pressure of around 20 psi and warn the head to around 180 to 190 degrees . We use to do this with the steam cleaner running really hot water thru it till we got the temp then fill with hot water and pressure it up . IF there was a leaking crack you found it . Also we did this with a bare head that was cleaned .
 
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D Slater
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: New posting for 450 diesel # 1 cylinder leaking. Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Does your sleeve look like this one? In the picture above post that's a 53436DE head gasket sitting on the sleeve and how it fits. Head gasket number 53436DE was made by Victor, # V 1705. Stand out for lower part of sleeve .000 to .006 and better below .006.
 
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