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Electric power steering for my 8N

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JF in MI
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yes, I'm sure there are more things speed data is used for but I was trying to "dumb it down" for the purposes of using these units to add power steering to other vehicles, of
different manufacture, not having PS in the first place. The point I'm trying to make is that not all electric PS modules will work for this, at least not without spending a
pant load of more money.
 
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JF in MI
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Positioning it straight forward is a way of doing a minimum of hacking up the body work as I saw it. Yes, if you faced it backward you would hit the shifter. The motor could be
angled to the left a bit but gains are sort of minimal. Facing it to the right hits the oil gauge. This unit and controller was out of a 2004 through 2009 Toyota Prius. As I
mentioned earlier this unit is unnecessarily beefy for this application and in retrospect I should have kept looking for a smaller (easier to fit) unit with "failsafe" mode but
again these big units seem to be reasonably priced and plentiful. Be advised that the most important thing is to fabricate the unit to box adapter perfectly line centered to
avoid a potentially destructive wobble.
 
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Royse
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

"This unit and controller was out of a 2004 through 2009 Toyota Prius."

"but again these big units seem to be reasonably priced and plentiful."

I had to think about these statements for a few minutes.
2004-2009 still seem like "newer" vehicles to me. But then, they
are 10 to 15 years old, so I'm sure plenty have been wrecked.
Where does the time go? LOL
To make it improve a ~70 year old tractor?
Is that priceless, timeless, or both?
Either way, it's awesome!
 
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TheOldHokie
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:25 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-JF in MI wrote:
(quoted from post at 22:29:55 01/14/20) Yes, I'm sure there are more things speed data is used for but I was trying to "dumb it down" for the purposes of using these units to add power steering to other vehicles, of
different manufacture, not having PS in the first place. The point I'm trying to make is that not all electric PS modules will work for this, at least not without spending a
pant load of more money.


Pardon me if I seem to be beating a dead horse but I like to understand the minutia of things. A little research cleared up my confusion.

The Saturn Vue and similar steering motors have an integral ECU that requires multiple CAN bus inputs in order to function. Those signals are used by the steering ECU to bias the base assist level derived from the torque sensors. Without them the motor will not operate at all and you get manual steering via the column shaft. The aftermarket "controller" is just a dumb module that fakes those CAN bus signals to get the motor to run. A rheostat is commonly used to control the level of the fake CAN bus signals and hence the level of bias applied to the torque sensor data. This allows the operator to dial in more or less assist to suit their preference for feel.

Some Japanese units use a remotely mounted ECU and some of those will operate with the ECU disconnected. This is the "fail safe" mode you describe and it provides a default level of assist similar to conventional hydraulic PS. In this mode the internal torque sensor data is used by the motor controller to adjust assist to match varying road conditions and maintain a fixed steering wheel resistance for the operator. These units only need power connections to operate in this mode and in the event they lose power they operate like a traditional manual steering shaft.

TOH
 
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Ultradog MN
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:33 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Knowing how much torque that is needed to turn the wheel under "normal" circumstances would be an interesting experiment. Ie, light tractor on pavement or on grass, etc.
More important would be some specs on severe circumstances like trying to steer out of a frozen rut or trying to steer with a loader full of dirt. The human mind kind of instinctively knows - or learns - that to steer the tractor under severe conditions requires the tractor to be moving first.
I don't think the eps is going to be able to compute that.
For the sake of conversation I'm going to throw out some hypothetical numbers here.
*Normal steering with a light tractor = 100 ft lbs.
* Severe duty with a partial bucket of dirt = 150 ft lbs.
* Extreme duty with heavily loaded bucket or steering out of a frozen rut = 200 ft lbs.
If your eps was set up to produce a maximum of say 150 ft lbs of torque you wouldn't break anything though you would wear things much more quickly.
If the eps was set up to produce 200 ft lbs you would bust up your steering pretty quickly.
A guy would have to do a lot more experimenting than the two tests mentioned above. You'd need to figure out "normal" "severe" and "extreme" and then figure out how much torque can safely be input via the eps.
For what it's worth, Ford did put limitations on their power assist.
The wishbone style 600/800/3000/etc used a pump that produced about 750 psi.
Larger tractors and industrial models which were more robust used a pump that produced about 1100 psi. So there are limitations even on a tractor that applies the power assist IN FRONT of the sector gears.
And don't forget that "in front" part folks as that is crucial to this debate.
Lastly, a guy could easily make a device that fit over the steering wheel hub and applied the torque to the spokes. Weld a socket on it so you can steer with your torque wrench to get some numbers.
 
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JF in MI
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:02 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yes, yes, and YES! Finally! Just one last clarification for those who've never seen one. TOH is referring to the MAIN computer that operates the engine and a number of other
things. Modern cars have multiple (like a dozen) smaller computers (call them processors, modules or what ever) that control subsets of equipment (example; radio, door locks)
and this type of steering is one of them. Some steering will operate just with their specific module (like mine) and others require an "assist" from the main computer. The
aftermarket electronics provide that extra "fake" assist which also allows manual adjustment of the power input. Lots of hotrod aftermarket suppliers offer pre-packaged kits
like this for $$$$.
 
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JF in MI
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:17 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

OK, I realize that your numbers are, as you say, hypothetical but to avoid confusion to some others please remember that what I measured was inch pounds (I had to torque the 3/4" bolts on my car lift to 130 foot lbs, with a longer arm torque wrench than a steering wheel and darn near pulled my arm out of its socket). But I see what you're getting at and a input torque limiting device may be easier than anyone thinks. In hydraulic steering the limiter is the pressure pop off valve. As I pointed out with this electric unit the amp draw goes up with the amount of work it has to do. I would think that putting in a predetermined circuit breaker would do precisely the same thing (limiting flow albeit electrical).
Now as far as making a torque wrench adapter for the steering wheel; You guys are KILLING me! I've had enough fabricating for one week and the only work I want to do is reduce the volume of my bottle of rye.
 
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JF in MI
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:26 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

One more thing I might add that may quell your concerns about excess input torque. The driven gears in these worm gear electric power steering units are plastic. How much load do you think can be applied to them even if the electric motor had unlimited power?
 
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TheOldHokie
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:04 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-JF in MI wrote:
(quoted from post at 09:17:03 01/15/20) OK, I realize that your numbers are, as you say, hypothetical but to avoid confusion to some others please remember that what I measured was inch pounds (I had to torque the 3/4" bolts on my car lift to 130 foot lbs, with a longer arm torque wrench than a steering wheel and darn near pulled my arm out of its socket). But I see what you're getting at and a input torque limiting device may be easier than anyone thinks. In hydraulic steering the limiter is the pressure pop off valve. As I pointed out with this electric unit the amp draw goes up with the amount of work it has to do. I would think that putting in a predetermined circuit breaker would do precisely the same thing (limiting flow albeit electrical).
Now as far as making a torque wrench adapter for the steering wheel; You guys are KILLING me! I've had enough fabricating for one week and the only work I want to do is reduce the volume of my bottle of rye


The motor controller already limits current draw to a design maximum AND duration. This is to address situations where the wheels are jammed (e.g parked against the curb, obstruction, or in a ditch) and can not turn sideways. Without limiting logic the operator could keep the wheel pulled over causing the motor to stall and overheat to the point of failure. IIRC the limit i have seen documented is generally around 65A and maximum duration is just a few seconds. This protects the motor not the gearbox or steering rack because the motor can not produce enough torque to damage them.

Let's not lose track of the essential point. The input power needed to turn the wheels is governed by road conditions. The steering motor and torsion bar shaft are sized to match the output of a normally sized human. The maximum input power to the steering box is going to be roughly the same as what that human could grunt up without EPS. The engineers have thought these issues through and gone to considerable length to protect the motor, the shaft, and the syeering gearbox/rack from overload. If you believe the nay sayers a Kia Metro or Toyota Prius steering box/rack must be a lot more robust than the one on the old "over built" for plowing fields 8N Ford tractor.

TOH
 
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JF in MI
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Best points yet.
 
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Ultradog MN
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:18 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The crux of this conversation is input torque. Plastic gears or otherwise, input torque is important and as of yet we have no basis for comparison.
I have overhauled a bunch of twin arm Ford steering boxes, both manual and power assist.
Here are a few of my observations.
To begin with they are all nearly identical - from the late 8N through 1983.
A manual box always shows more wear than a ps box. Sector bushings are worn, adjusting screws on the end caps are adjusted in deeper because the sector teeth are more worn, balls and the ball nut are more worn.
A power steering box uses the exact same bottom end as a non ps box. They do very little 'work'. The work is done in front of the ps box. Those always show very little wear on the internals. Basically you just need to replace the seals, go through the hydraulic control valve and you are done.
You can always tell a manual box that was used on a loader tractor. No more adjustment on the adjusting screws, sector teeth you could shave with, twisted sector shafts, non reuseable balls and ball nuts, bent steering arms and cracked housings.
These are all symptoms of too great of input torque and of course abuse and impacts.
The draglink in front of the steering cylinders is also much heavier than non ps draglinks.
Going back to my numbers (100,150, 200) here if you guys do the experiments and can tell me what the comparative inputs are for the eps and assure me that the torque input (and torque resistance to an impact) is not over my hypothetical 150 I will stop arguing against this eps add on - at least on mechanical grounds.
In the mean time, I'm always up for a good debate.
 
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Ultradog MN wrote:
(quoted from post at 11:18:07 01/15/20) The crux of this conversation is input torque. Plastic gears or otherwise, input torque is important and as of yet we have no basis for comparison.
I have overhauled a bunch of twin arm Ford steering boxes, both manual and power assist.
Here are a few of my observations.
To begin with they are all nearly identical - from the late 8N through 1983.
A manual box always shows more wear than a ps box. Sector bushings are worn, adjusting screws on the end caps are adjusted in deeper because the sector teeth are more worn, balls and the ball nut are more worn.
A power steering box uses the exact same bottom end as a non ps box. They do very little 'work'. The work is done in front of the ps box. Those always show very little wear on the internals. Basically you just need to replace the seals, go through the hydraulic control valve and you are done.
You can always tell a manual box that was used on a loader tractor. No more adjustment on the adjusting screws, sector teeth you could shave with, twisted sector shafts, non reuseable balls and ball nuts, bent steering arms and cracked housings.
These are all symptoms of too great of input torque and of course abuse and impacts.
The draglink in front of the steering cylinders is also much heavier than non ps draglinks.
Going back to my numbers (100,150, 200) here if you guys do the experiments and can tell me what the comparative inputs are for the eps and assure me that the torque input (and torque resistance to an impact) is not over my hypothetical 150 I will stop arguing against this eps add on - at least on mechanical grounds.
In the mean time, I'm always up for a good debate.


This dead horse is getting rather bloody from the repeated beatings. Input torque is governed by the road wheels and is the same with or without EPS.

TOH
 
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Ultradog MN
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Actually,
Input torque is governed by a sensor.
Usually one that knows enough to not put
his foot against the dash and pull on
the wheel with both hands.
We still don't know how much torque your
"no road sensor required" eps inputs.
It was engineered for a different
application.
 
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:33 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

this is more lively than the
"which oil is best" threads on motorcycle forums. :lol:
 
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Ultradog MN wrote:
(quoted from post at 12:27:25 01/15/20) Actually,
Input torque is governed by a sensor.
Usually one that knows enough to not put
his foot against the dash and pull on
the wheel with both hands.
We still don't know how much torque your
"no road sensor required" eps inputs.
It was engineered for a different
application.


This mangled piece of bloody meat is no longer recognizable as a horse.

I know that it cannot and will not output more than the road wheels require to operate. That is the only "road sensor" needed in this application. One would also hope the same sensor that keeps his foot of the dash is smart enough to know when a wheel is jammed and cannot operate.

And even if he doesn't I am quite sure the EPS motor will stall and the controller will disable the motor long before the gear box is damaged same as it does on a Prius. Again - to protect the motor which even on a Prius is far more vulnerable to damage from this scenario than the steering gear.

TOH
 
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