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Electric power steering for my 8N

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JF in MI
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I apologize for this mess. All I wanted to do was make a "How I did it" post. I never thought it would turn into the maelstrom it is. This is why, years ago, I took the advise
of Bluto (from Animal House) and 'started drinking heavily'.
 
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TheOldHokie
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Location: Myersville, MD

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:42 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-JF in MI wrote:
(quoted from post at 13:14:01 01/15/20) I apologize for this mess. All I wanted to do was make a "How I did it" post. I never thought it would turn into the maelstrom it is. This is why, years ago, I took the advise
of Bluto (from Animal House) and 'started drinking heavily'.


Hey, more views than this forum normally sees in a week :)

TOH
 
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Ultradog MN
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Joined: 22 Apr 2001
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Location: Twin Cities

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

"I know that it cannot and will not
output more than the road wheels require
to operate."

And if your wheels are frozen into soft
ground or in a hole with a load on your
loader?

"I am quite sure the EPS motor will
stall and the controller will disable
the motor long before the gear box is
damaged same as it does on a Prius."

What is your proof of that?
How much torque will it input before
before it stalls? Is a Prius stronger or
weaker than an N?
Will it input more or less than the N's
draglinks will handle? Or the sectors?
Got any numbers for us?
Is that How they built these tractors in
the first place? Or Toyotas for that
matter?
Joe, "It'll work, I tell ya."
Mike, How do you know it will work?"
Joe, "It'll work! Here hold my beer."

You are pulling this stuff out of the
air and giving it to us as facts.
It's all ipsi dixit - assertions without
proof.
Maybe it'll work great.
Maybe it won't.
Maybe it's strong enough to bust your
steering box.
I just know that Ford never installed
their power assist Behind the sectors
and I'm skeptical of anyone who ignores
that fact.
 
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Ultradog MN
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Joined: 22 Apr 2001
Posts: 25219
Location: Twin Cities

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I don't look at as a maelstrom.
I see it as a learning experience.
 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Ultradog MN wrote:
(quoted from post at 14:55:50 01/15/20) "I know that it cannot and will not
output more than the road wheels require
to operate."

And if your wheels are frozen into soft
ground or in a hole with a load on your
loader?

"I am quite sure the EPS motor will
stall and the controller will disable
the motor long before the gear box is
damaged same as it does on a Prius."

What is your proof of that?
How much torque will it input before
before it stalls? Is a Prius stronger or
weaker than an N?
Will it input more or less than the N's
draglinks will handle? Or the sectors?
Got any numbers for us?
Is that How they built these tractors in
the first place? Or Toyotas for that
matter?
Joe, "It'll work, I tell ya."
Mike, How do you know it will work?"
Joe, "It'll work! Here hold my beer."

You are pulling this stuff out of the
air and giving it to us as facts.
It's all ipsi dixit - assertions without
proof.
Maybe it'll work great.
Maybe it won't.
Maybe it's strong enough to bust your
steering box.
I just know that Ford never installed
their power assist Behind the sectors
and I'm skeptical of anyone who ignores
that fact.
Conclusion: nail pounding is kinda slow, so I'll make noise by flapping my gums. :roll:
 
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Ultradog MN
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Joined: 22 Apr 2001
Posts: 25219
Location: Twin Cities

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:04 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

We know we can always count on you to
make meaningful contributions here jmor.
 
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Hobo,NC
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Posts: 19500
Location: Sanford,NC

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Poor lubrication/contamination is the killer all has been and always will be...
 
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JMOR
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Posts: 25634


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Ultradog MN wrote:
(quoted from post at 15:04:15 01/15/20) We know we can always count on you to
make meaningful contributions here jmor.
you are welcome!
 
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TheOldHokie
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Location: Myersville, MD

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Ultradog MN wrote:
(quoted from post at 14:55:50 01/15/20) "I know that it cannot and will not
output more than the road wheels require
to operate."

And if your wheels are frozen into soft
ground or in a hole with a load on your
loader?

"I am quite sure the EPS motor will
stall and the controller will disable
the motor long before the gear box is
damaged same as it does on a Prius."

What is your proof of that?
How much torque will it input before
before it stalls? Is a Prius stronger or
weaker than an N?
Will it input more or less than the N's
draglinks will handle? Or the sectors?
Got any numbers for us?
Is that How they built these tractors in
the first place? Or Toyotas for that
matter?
Joe, "It'll work, I tell ya."
Mike, How do you know it will work?"
Joe, "It'll work! Here hold my beer."

You are pulling this stuff out of the
air and giving it to us as facts.
It's all - assertions without
proof.


I spent decades in a profession where research and fact finding was job one. When I post here I try to base my assertions on same. I typically spend time researching my assertions before I put them in print for the world to see in perpetuity and in this case I have spent more than a little time at that. Here is an example of that research - a simple explanation of the basic operation of EPS with some quantifications for the doubters. It is GM specific but generally representative of the type, size, and power of EPS steering motors.

General Motors Electric Power Steering (EPS)

Per that GM document their steering motor is a 12V DC brushless permanent magnet motor with a current rating of 58 amps max. That current is instantaneous and cannot be sustained for more than a second or two without the risk of motor damage and in any event isn't going to make enough torque to bend or break any steering gear or tie rod end I ever saw. Less you accuse me of another ipsi dixit assertion here is a link to a reference that will walk you through the math of guestimating the torque output of such a motor:

Motor Constants

Maybe that reference isn't the sort of thing you are looking for. . As you can see the calculation is a little complicated so maybe we go this way. Here is a link to typical 12V DC right angle gear motor of the type used in that EPS system:

Typical 12 VDC Permanent Magnet Gear Motor

This motor has a maximum current rating of 16A, no load speed of 500 RPM, rated torque of 8.5 in-lbs, and a speed of 250 RPM at rated torque. Not exactly gear busting numbers. And neither is the output of that slightly larger 58A GM motor. Both are going to need a lot of help from the EPS reduction drive to get anything close to what a human could produce at the steering wheel.

I will repeat my hopefully not so ipsi dixit now assertion : a typical EPS steering motor is going to stall when presented with an immobilized steering gear and locked rotor current in the motor is going to skyrocket. As described in my earlier reference the motor controller is going to see that spike and immediately back the power off or shut it down completely to prevent frying the motor. Input torque to the steering gear is never going to get much more than what a human could pull up without assist and nothing is going to get broken except possibly the motor.

You can find many more credible references corroborating my "ipsi dixit" assertions in greater detail if you would like to do a little research rather than spew FUD. And if you do avail yourself of some real research on this matter you will quickly discover the steering motor is the weak link in this arrangement, the one that will be the first to fail if overloaded, and the one that needs to be and is protected by the motor controller. The inconvenient for you facts are all there if you bother to look.

TOH
 
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Tom/Idaho
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

WOW! Being the owner/installer of EPS in my 8N I most certainly do agree with Hobo,NC and TOH. This very same unit is being installed in a great numbers in many off-road racing and antique vehicles. Take a few minutes and Goggle this site ePowersteering.com. Mine is not the only tractor shown.
Tom/Idaho
 
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JF in MI
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

OK, you guys are REALLY pi$$ing me off now. You've FORCED me to fabricate an adapter to put on the steering wheel to measure the torque required to turn it with no power applied. It takes 220 inch pounds on dry concrete (I might add that I have what would be referred to as high floatation [wider] front tires and not the standard narrow 8N type). I will NOT test it in the grass because I won't see any for another 3 months and I will NOT park it out in a puddle to let it freeze overnight to test in the morning. I hope you're all happy now. I didn't want to do anymore fabricating and wanted to be left alone with my bottle. So much for rest for the weary.
 
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TheOldHokie
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Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Posts: 10672
Location: Myersville, MD

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-JF in MI wrote:
(quoted from post at 19:40:15 01/15/20) OK, you guys are REALLY pi$$ing me off now. You've FORCED me to fabricate an adapter to put on the steering wheel to measure the torque required to turn it with no power applied. It takes 220 inch pounds on dry concrete (I might add that I have what would be referred to as high floatation [wider] front tires and not the standard narrow 8N type). I will NOT test it in the grass because I won't see any for another 3 months and I will NOT park it out in a puddle to let it freeze overnight to test in the morning. I hope you're all happy now. I didn't want to do anymore fabricating and wanted to be left alone with my bottle. So much for rest for the weary.


Just relax and let the medicine work - sometimes it takes days of dosage before you begin to feel the results :shock:

TOH
 
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Ultradog MN
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Location: Twin Cities

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I'm reading about eps.
Its hard to find much info about output torque on them.
Ive made a few inquiries, sent some emails.
I will post if/when I have something for you guys.
This debate is Not settled. It's just getting started so if you don't like learning new stuff look out.
It took us 15 years to peaceably talk about 12 volts and or EI here without causing a hellful ruckus. But we got through it and we all learned something.
Toh, I don't understand why you bothered to post those links.
I found zero info applicable to our discussion. My first thought was obfuscation but I will give you the benefit of the doubt...
JF, thank you for building the adapter and doing the test. Good info for a start.
Now we just need someone to do that for us with a loader on his N or while plowing. Something that takes a little more muscle.
Establish some real values for my hypothetical 100, 150, 200 ones.
 
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TheOldHokie
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Posts: 10672
Location: Myersville, MD

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Ultradog MN wrote:
(quoted from post at 14:55:50 01/15/20) "I know that it cannot and will not
output more than the road wheels require
to operate."

And if your wheels are frozen into soft
ground or in a hole with a load on your
loader?

"I am quite sure the EPS motor will
stall and the controller will disable
the motor long before the gear box is
damaged same as it does on a Prius."

What is your proof of that?
How much torque will it input before
before it stalls? Is a Prius stronger or
weaker than an N?
Will it input more or less than the N's
draglinks will handle? Or the sectors?
Got any numbers for us?
Is that How they built these tractors in
the first place? Or Toyotas for that
matter?
Joe, "It'll work, I tell ya."
Mike, How do you know it will work?"
Joe, "It'll work! Here hold my beer."

You are pulling this stuff out of the
air and giving it to us as facts.
It's all ipsi dixit - assertions without
proof.
Maybe it'll work great.
Maybe it won't.
Maybe it's strong enough to bust your
steering box.
I just know that Ford never installed
their power assist Behind the sectors
and I'm skeptical of anyone who ignores
that fact.


Some more ipsi dixit assertions for your consideration - did I mention I made my living with them? Here is a link to the the web page for Johnson Electric's line of "high torque" electric power steering motors. You may have heard of Johnson Electrics , one of the big boys in the automotive electrics game and a major supplier of OEM components.

Johnson Electric 12VDC EPS Motors

You will find links to data sheets for the three different motor platforms on that page but you will have to register to download them. To save you the trouble I will summarize the pertinent data:

EPS-B67, max operating torque 2450 mNM@53A, stall torque 4900 mNM@106A
EPS-B72 - max operating torque 3225 mNM@64A, stall torque 6448 nNM@126A
EPS-B78 - max operating torque 3700 mNM@70A, stall torque 7500 mNM@140A

For the metrically challenged that works out to operating torques of 1.8, 2.4,and 2.7 lb-ft. The corresponding stall torques are 3.6, 4.8, and 5.5 lb_ft.

The B67 model is in the same class as the GM motor we discussed earlier. If I remember my 10th grade physics correctly with a 10:1 worm drive on the output shaft that motor stalls at 36 lb-ft of gear box input torque and a locked rotor current draw of 106A. The motor controller will have shut it down well short of that. The other motors are way bigger than we would find in a Prius or Vue but even they are hardly gear busting behemoths.

TOH
 
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JMOR
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Posts: 25634


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

TheOldHokie wrote:
(quoted from post at 22:11:18 01/15/20)
CVPost-Ultradog MN wrote:
(quoted from post at 14:55:50 01/15/20) "I know that it cannot and will not
output more than the road wheels require
to operate."

And if your wheels are frozen into soft
ground or in a hole with a load on your
loader?

"I am quite sure the EPS motor will
stall and the controller will disable
the motor long before the gear box is
damaged same as it does on a Prius."

What is your proof of that?
How much torque will it input before
before it stalls? Is a Prius stronger or
weaker than an N?
Will it input more or less than the N's
draglinks will handle? Or the sectors?
Got any numbers for us?
Is that How they built these tractors in
the first place? Or Toyotas for that
matter?
Joe, "It'll work, I tell ya."
Mike, How do you know it will work?"
Joe, "It'll work! Here hold my beer."

You are pulling this stuff out of the
air and giving it to us as facts.
It's all ipsi dixit - assertions without
proof.
Maybe it'll work great.
Maybe it won't.
Maybe it's strong enough to bust your
steering box.
I just know that Ford never installed
their power assist Behind the sectors
and I'm skeptical of anyone who ignores
that fact.


Some more ipsi dixit assertions for your consideration - did I mention I made my living with them? Here is a link to the the web page for Johnson Electric's line of "high torque" electric power steering motors. You may have heard of Johnson Electrics , one of the big boys in the automotive electrics game and a major supplier of OEM components.

Johnson Electric 12VDC EPS Motors

You will find links to data sheets for the three different motor platforms on that page but you will have to register to download them. To save you the trouble I will summarize the pertinent data:

EPS-B67, max operating torque 2450 mNM@53A, stall torque 4900 mNM@106A
EPS-B72 - max operating torque 3225 mNM@64A, stall torque 6448 nNM@126A
EPS-B78 - max operating torque 3700 mNM@70A, stall torque 7500 mNM@140A

For the metrically challenged that works out to operating torques of 1.8, 2.4,and 2.7 lb-ft. The corresponding stall torques are 3.6, 4.8, and 5.5 lb_ft.

The B67 model is in the same class as the GM motor we discussed earlier. If I remember my 10th grade physics correctly with a 10:1 worm drive on the output shaft that motor stalls at 36 lb-ft of gear box input torque and a locked rotor current draw of 106A. The motor controller will have shut it down well short of that. The other motors are way bigger than we would find in a Prius or Vue but even they are hardly gear busting behemoths.

TOH
TOH, you are wasting you time! This guy has said repeatedly that he is interested in "debate" and he needs no facts for that ! A few years ago he ragged on Bruce unmercifully about wanting originality , but now......wants originality vs EPS. Kinda like today's climate.....if you are for it I'm against it and if you are against it, I'm for it! Some "people' simply need to be ignored. :idea:
 
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