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Electric power steering for my 8N

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JMOR
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:43 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Hobo,NC wrote:
(quoted from post at 23:03:16 01/16/20)
When you have to jump start it a few times and can not figure out whats the deal the amp meter show's its put'N out amps it must be a bad battery... When in fact the belt is slip'N and undercharging the battery that's why I am a voltmeter lubber it tells the truth...

Just fer the ell of it put a voltmeter on it how does the EPS affect it when under a load... This is not a debate on which is best if your alt cannot keep the voltage up that will turn into a problem over time :wink:
Absolutely correct HOBO, debates are based on option, not facts. Go with facts, they prevail. When it works, it works!
 
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Ultradog MN
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:56 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

"debates are based on options".

I assume you mistyped and meant
opinions?
If so you are entirely incorrect.
The more facts you present in a debate
the more you are able to sway opinions.
That's Freshman Humanities 101 stuff.
 
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JF in MI
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:18 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

You don't need no stinkin' facts to sway opinion. Haven't you been watching what is going on in Washington for the past few years?
 
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TheOldHokie
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:00 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Ultradog MN wrote:
(quoted from post at 06:56:45 01/17/20) "debates are based on options".

I assume you mistyped and meant
opinions?
If so you are entirely incorrect.
The more facts you present in a debate
the more you are able to sway opinions.
That's Freshman Humanities 101 stuff.


Socratic debate AKA rational argument (Humanities 101) relies on the application of logic to human language propositions in order to ascertain the truth or falseness of assertions involving those propositions. Syllogistic logic originated with the ancient scholars of India, China, and Greece (Aristotle) and was the basis for early reasoning and debate. Syllogistic logic was formalized as predicate logic in the late 19th century and was taught as Philosophy 202 - Introduction to Logic when I was in school. It is the underpinning for modern day scientific reasoning and mathematical proof. I am sure you remember this stuff:



Sophistic debate as characterized by Plato and Aristotle however is "the deliberate use of fallacious reasoning, intellectual charlatanism and moral unscrupulousness" to confuse the argument, promulgate found less propositions, and fool the listener into believing things that are not true. It is the antithesis of Socratic debate and a modern day example for that type of debate is arguments based on FUD.

Plato and Aristotle where probably overly harsh in their assessment of the Sophist's arguments but they got the distinction between the two types of debate dead right.

TOH
 
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JF in MI
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:51 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

From Hobo;
>When you have to jump start it a few times and can not figure out whats the deal the amp meter show's its put'N out amps it must be a bad battery... When in fact the belt is slip'N and undercharging the battery that's why I am a voltmeter lubber it tells the truth...
Just fer the ell of it put a voltmeter on it how does the EPS affect it when under a load... This is not a debate on which is best if your alt cannot keep the voltage up that will turn into a problem over time<

OK, here we go again. Just to pacify or anger some (depending on your point of view) I dragged my weary a$$ out into the freakin' freezing (14 deg F) hangar and fired up the 8N with a voltmeter attached to the battery. After starting it up the voltage read 14.2 and eventually settled at 14.3 after the ammeter settled from the initial starter drain replacement. I then turned the steering wheel and held it hard over in lock while I read both gauges. The ammeter read about 18 amp load and the voltage dropped to 14.2 and held there. After a while I let go of the wheel, the amp draw went to zero and the voltage, within a few seconds, went back to and stabilized at 14.3. I might mention that during this exercise the steering box didn't split open, the battery didn't explode, the wiring, alternator or belt did not smoke or squeal but my fingers did get numb.
I might add that I got this stupid EPS tractor idea from the identical unit I installed, over a year ago, on my '60 Corvette with the V8 sitting over the front wheels, the miniature Kubota alternator on it with the tiny pulley and whimpy 3/8" belt. I've been driving this car to shows all last summer and the battery never failed to start the car once. How do you explain that?
 
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TheOldHokie
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-JF in MI wrote:
(quoted from post at 09:51:50 01/17/20) From Hobo;
>When you have to jump start it a few times and can not figure out whats the deal the amp meter show's its put'N out amps it must be a bad battery... When in fact the belt is slip'N and undercharging the battery that's why I am a voltmeter lubber it tells the truth...
Just fer the ell of it put a voltmeter on it how does the EPS affect it when under a load... This is not a debate on which is best if your alt cannot keep the voltage up that will turn into a problem over time<

OK, here we go again. Just to pacify or anger some (depending on your point of view) I dragged my weary a$$ out into the freakin' freezing (14 deg F) hangar and fired up the 8N with a voltmeter attached to the battery. After starting it up the voltage read 14.2 and eventually settled at 14.3 after the ammeter settled from the initial starter drain replacement. I then turned the steering wheel and held it hard over in lock while I read both gauges. The ammeter read about 18 amp load and the voltage dropped to 14.2 and held there. After a while I let go of the wheel, the amp draw went to zero and the voltage, within a few seconds, went back to and stabilized at 14.3. I might mention that during this exercise the steering box didn't split open, the battery didn't explode, the wiring, alternator or belt did not smoke or squeal but my fingers did get numb.
I might add that I got this stupid EPS tractor idea from the identical unit I installed, over a year ago, on my '60 Corvette with the V8 sitting over the front wheels, the miniature Kubota alternator on it with the tiny pulley and whimpy 3/8" belt. I've been driving this car to shows all last summer and the battery never failed to start the car once. How do you explain that?


I'll leave this debate to you and Hobo but I find the test data interesting.

A 35A alternator and you are getting 18A discharge with the steering box output immobilized and still pulling hard on the steering wheel. Sounds like you are maxing the stalled motor out at 35A + 18A = 53A which is remarkably close to the full power rating of the motors I have documented but well short of their uncontrolled stalled draw. That would suggest the motor controller has the situation well in hand and is limiting the current to the stalled motor to avoid frying it. It would be interesting to see how long the controller allows that full power draw to continue if you were to chain the wheel over for an extended period of time but that test might wind up costing you some bucks. I am of course talking about the motor not steering gears or tie rod ends. Keep up your fluid intake and stay warm ;-)

TOH
 
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Ultradog MN
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:29 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Lol
Yes, I learned that stuff too.
Sophistry was explained as baffling them
with BS.
Socratic debate was described as Kabuki
theater where the style and form of an
argument are as important as the
content.
But go follow a college debate team for
a few days and you will see them
cramming more on the content of the
upcoming topic than the form.
Modern debate depends on you being able
to present facts according to a
prescribed set of rules. It's ancester
is the Socratic method but it is far
removed from that and content scores
higher than form.
Your post was just more obfuscation with
a bit of Sophistry thrown in.
Thanks for the memories though.
 
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JF in MI
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:35 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

No, the alternator feeds through the ammeter and the steering does not so it reads only what is being replaced into the battery as the result of the draw. That would be only
18 amps and because the voltage remains the same it indicates that there is no additional drain above that. No one seems to get this. The steering is drawing only a fraction
of what the alternator can replace. The voltage regulator is doing the job it is supposed to.
 
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TheOldHokie
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:52 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Ultradog MN wrote:
(quoted from post at 10:29:41 01/17/20) Lol
Yes, I learned that stuff too.
Sophistry was explained as baffling them
with BS.
Socratic debate was described as Kabuki
theater where the style and form of an
argument are as important as the
content.
But go follow a college debate team for
a few days and you will see them
cramming more on the content of the
upcoming topic than the form.
Modern debate depends on you being able
to present facts according to a
prescribed set of rules. It's ancester
is the Socratic method but it is far
removed from that and content scores
higher than form.
Your post was just more obfuscation with
a bit of Sophistry thrown in.
Thanks for the memories though.


I didn't say content didn't count. Minus one from the judges.

I have been on a debate team albeit a while ago and one of the "rules" is logic trumps all. If you start tossing out facts without logical application and relevance you will lose more than one point.

TOH
 
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JF in MI
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:00 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Sounds like we have a master debater here.;)
 
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Hobo,NC
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:06 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I had my doubts EPS would pull anywhere close to its rated max of 60 amps unless something went way wrong.

Belt size does not matter as long as it is configured proper for the application and 100% efficient. Where issues arise is when wear sets in and the ability of the configuration to support the load of the driven part.

Let s go back to my Zane Thang the extra load it put on the belt lead to belt slippage overtime it worked well other than occasionally the battery would be so low it failed to crank the engine over fast enough to start I had to jump it off. This issue with this among 100 s of low battery issues I have dealt with over the years has taught me to first confirm the health of the belt and drive system The amp gauge read it was charging my voltmeter showed 13.2V my next step check the belt drive system even tho all seamed well it had enough slippage it was undercharging the battery (13.2V) A good habit I have accumulated is to first check the belt drive system on any condition that would affect components driven by the belt. I added a extra belt tensioner to it under the alt belt between the alt and crank pulley my issues were resolved and the voltage stayed constant over 14V : ).

My concern was the long term effect it would have on the charging system all you ducks have to be in a row for the belt drive to maintain battery health overtime it was something to keep an eye on if you suffer from a random low battery.

I have somewhat the same issue with my tow truck it uses an electric over hydraulic wheel lift no matter how many battery s I run on it and there size are how big the alternator is you better keep that dang belt banjo string tight are it will undercharge the battery because of the extra load the lift puts on them to recharge the batteries. This is the only issue I see with adding EPS its demand on the charging system with a belt drive system that was not designed for extra loads
I would check static battery voltage every now and again and confirm it was 12.6 before I started it, I would get in the habit of pushing on the alternator fan to keep up with belt tension and ware. All if this is to stay in front of a problem before it runs me over EPS is dependent on it WINK WINK
 
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JF in MI
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I haven't touched and have not had belt tension issues with my EPS Corvette over the last year, but wouldn't checking things like that or oil level be considered routine
maintenance? EPS draw is momentary not constant. I'm bewildered by this 'tensioner' requirement thing. How did a gagillion motor vehicles manage to start over the last
century?
 
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Hobo,NC
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:23 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote


I did not say it was a requirement...

Its more something to keep in mind iffin' an issue does arise...

I did state a 65 amp alt will do the job BUT all yer ducks need to be lined up in a row.... A 65 amp gm 10si is a overkill for most all situations its the standard conversion alt it cost no more to up from 35 amps to 65 and the most common bolt on we use...

Wheres the pix of your plastic car we like pix...
 
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JF in MI
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The same one I posted of what has the "Fake" generator in it. My other Ford in the background.

 
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gears
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric power steering for my 8N Reply to specific post Reply with quote

What happens to amp draw if you hit the horn while pressing the brakes AND the blinkers are on? :)


Nice looking machines JF. Wish my shop was that neat.
 
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