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8N front mount distributor replacement

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Ron Petterson
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 8N front mount distributor replacement Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Could you see play vertically in shaft with points open?
Did you have horizontal play in shaft?
 
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Bruce (VA)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: 8N front mount distributor replacement Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Think of how the distributor mounts on the tractor.

The shaft will have some front to back movement off the tractor, but when you bolt it down, that stops.

It's the sideways movement of the shaft that causes problems. Because it effects the point gap. Replacing the bushings will fix that.
75 Tips

 
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lha
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:05 pm    Post subject: Re: 8N front mount distributor replacement Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I forgot to mention that on Rockauto,you'd have to order parts from a 1942 Ford 1/2 ton truck with 120 ci motor.
 
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Tim PloughNman Daley
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:07 am    Post subject: Re: 8N front mount distributor replacement Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Are you set up with the OEM 6V/POS GRN electrical system or have you or someone else done a 12V switch over job? Don’t buy any new parts just yet –you need to determine if the old can be rebuilt or fixed. I would say with 95% certainty that it is NOT your coil or condenser. Did you or the previous owner mount the front distributor wrong? If it is 180° off, the offset male tang on the front mount distributor isn't set correctly to the engine female cam it will not bolt down flush and you will crack the distributor base the first time you try and fire it up, SEE PICTURE. When that happens the base is junk as it can’t be used or fixed. Get the essential manuals and read, read, read. Know how to set the timing correctly. Gap is .015” +/- .001” and buy quality parts –SEE LIST BELOW. I will rebuild, test, and guarantee your front mount distributor if you want –email is open. I am not an advocate of buying new aftermarket parts. FORD designed all major components to be rebuilt over and over and should be your first choice when doing any work. No need to buy newer Cheena made POS junkers.
You can static test a front mount square can coil easily. Take your 6V coil off and set your VOM to OHMS. Place one probe on the pigtail wire and the other probe (polarity unimportant) on the top terminal post. Your 6V coil should read about 1.5 OHMS +/-. A 12V coil will be more, about double. However, it does not guarantee that the coil is good –will need to determine that when it gets heated up. You (or I) don’t have the proper and very expensive test equipment to troubleshoot a coil.
Incorrect wiring is 99% of most non-starting issues whether 6V/POS GRN or 12V/NEG GRN. Just because you have a 12V battery does not ensure you have it wired correctly. The same is true with a 6V battery. Don’t assume – verify with confirmed actual data. Get the ESSENTIAL MANUALS and JMOR’s WIRING PICTOGRAMS to map the electrical system. If you have a 12V system, are the generator and voltage regulator removed and an alternator installed? Do you have the OEM Ballast Resistor in place and wired correctly? You need it on both the 6V and the 12V setups. If using a 6V coil, you will need an external ceramic 1-OHM resistor in-line. There are only 3 brands (that I’ve found) of points that are good. Standard Ignition/Blue Streak/CNH/TISCO as the others I tested are all junk and can’t be timed. Set Breaker Points and set the timing per manuals. Once tested and assembled, install plug wires –firing order is: 1,2,4,3.
Disconnect battery and lights. Have battery tested not just charged. Lights can be reconnected after you get system running properly. Battery cables for a 6V need to be HD, thick. 12V cables are smaller diameter, like your car or truck. Generator (or alternator) must have a belt tension device attached. Lack of belt tension will result in a no-charging scenario.
Get the manuals -(MPC, I&T FO-4, & 8N Owner’s Manual area must). Get the wiring Pictograms by JMOR. Get “75 Tips For N-Owners” by Bruce(VA). Test coil. Verify wiring is correct. Verify distributor isn’t cracked as shown at tangs. Verify distributor timing is set correctly. Test unit before mounting via Bruce(VA). Mount distributor correctly. Test unit before firing up tractor. Use your VOM set to CONTINUITY and NOT a test light. Follow these measures and I promise you will have a good running tractor. Get the electrical right first, then you can work on the fuel test.

FORD 8N TRACTOR WIRING DIAGRAMS:






*PICTOGRAM courtesy of JMOR

FORD FRONT MOUNT DISTRIBUTOR – WHAT HAPPENS WHEN MOUNTED 180° OFF:




FORD N-TRACTOR FRONT MOUNT DISTRIBUTOR:



HOW TO SET TIMING:


FORD TRACTOR FRONT MOUNT DISTRIBUTOR FIRING ORDER; 1,2,4,3 CCW:



PARTS:
FYI: *ECHLIN/NAPA POINTS #CS-35 are no longer any good quality-wise.

1. BREAKER POINTS:
*ECHLIN - #CS35 (NO LONGER A QUALITY PART –DON’T USE)
STANDARD IGNITION/BLUE STREAK - #FD-6769X
CNH: #877445424
TISCO: #ATK6FF –includes rotor, condenser, feeler gage, & cam lube.

2. CAP:
ECHLIN - #FA350 or STANDARD IGNITION - #FD-126

3. CONDENSER:
ECHLIN - #FA-200 or STANDARD IGNITION - #FD-71

4. ROTOR:
ECHLIN - #FA-300 or STANDARD INGNITION - #FD-104, TISCO KIT Includes rotor.

5. GASKET KIT:
SPAREX #S.60308

6. 6V COIL:
IC670
7. BALLAST RESISTOR:
# ICR40

8. SPARK PLUG WIRES –COPPER CORE #

9. SPARK PLUGS:
AUTO-LITE 437 (216) or CHAMPION H12 (512)

10. CAM LUBE:
STANDARD IGNITION - #SL-2
ECHLIN: ML-1


FORD 8N TRACTOR ESSENTIAL OWNER/OPERATOR/PARTS/SERVICE MANUALS:



Tim Daley(MI)
 
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Ron Petterson
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: 8N front mount distributor replacement Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Tim, thank for this excellent information. So one additional question if you would be kind enough to answer if you have time.

This seems to address issues where the tractor is not and has not been running. My issue is it runs for short periods of time and then after a period of running, it wont start. Sometimes trying to restart right after shutdown, sometimes days/weeks after. Then I remove distributor, run some extra fine emory cloth through points, reset, tighten points back tight, reinstall distributor, tractor starts. The issue has been going on for years. Shortly after buying in the early 90's, it could go 6 months before problem reappeared. Then it got to where it would appear after running 10-15 times and then it after 2-3 times and now almost everytime the tractor has been used.

That is why I have discounted incorrect wiring, incorrect install of distributor since it has been on and off so many times with no damage showing anywhere, etc. I suspect I could go back on the forum site and find numerious questions I have posted and have followed instructions to determine problems. No luck.I will check the timing when I remove it to check condenser and will recheck coil ohms.

This problem is like looking for one flee on a Saint Bernard!
 
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lha
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: 8N front mount distributor replacement Reply to specific post Reply with quote

It is really easy to replace the bushings and this site has them. I bought a small tube of Mallory point grease about 15 years ago,it still has 3/4 of it's full amount,as it takes only a small amount.
 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: 8N front mount distributor replacement Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-lha wrote:
(quoted from post at 14:19:05 07/25/20) It is really easy to replace the bushings and this site has them. I bought a small tube of Mallory point grease about 15 years ago,it still has 3/4 of it's full amount,as it takes only a small amount.
I see nothing to indicate bushings are his problem.
 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:53 am    Post subject: Re: 8N front mount distributor replacement Reply to specific post Reply with quote

JMOR wrote:
(quoted from post at 14:37:01 07/25/20)
CVPost-lha wrote:
(quoted from post at 14:19:05 07/25/20) It is really easy to replace the bushings and this site has them. I bought a small tube of Mallory point grease about 15 years ago,it still has 3/4 of it's full amount,as it takes only a small amount.
I see nothing to indicate bushings are his problem.

Some things to ponder when hot engine hard start or no start. As engine runs, engine and all things attached heat up, especially those parts that generate heat on their own, such as the coil. Consider that the copper wire in the coil windings has a resistance increase as it heats & it isn't inconsequential! In fact it reduces coil current by ~ 25% compared to room temperature current & since spark energy is proportional to the square of the current, spark energy is reduced by ~44% TO ABOUT 56% OF ITS ROOM temperature value.
Now, as a "for instance", let us say that various things are marginal in the engine, maybe mixture, compression, points, condenser, plugs, plug wires, state of battery charge, on & on, but spark is just good enough to make it run even with its problems, but as temperature increases, the spark drops from 100% (cold), to 90%, then 75% and finally drops below what it needs to be to keep the engine running fine. Whereas if all engine systems were perfect, it might "run fine" with a spark of 60%. ....and it could be a perfectly normal coil, but other weaknesses result in no run condition at higher temperatures. Bad plugs, wires, etc. that cause the engine to need a higher energy spark than when all systems are well. Then there is no start when hot. It was running until stalled or turned off, but
won't restart. When hot, battery output is reduced, coil spark energy down,! and additional factors may result in
need better spark to start than to run.
Maybe time for compression check, or insert ammeter in resistor to coil terminal wire & measure current with key on
& points closed. Don't tell those trying to help, "everything looks in spec", give us measured numbers!
 
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Ron Petterson
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: 8N front mount distributor replacement Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Tim, Thanks for all this information. Someone yesterday asked for "actual" readings on the coil and not "it appears right", so I went back today and rechecked my numbers. The coil reading at 200 ohm setting (lowest on my ohm meter) from the resistor to the coil connector read 1.0 to 1.1 fluctuating. Then I connected to the pig tail inside the coil that connects to the top screw in the distributor. From the resistor to the pig tail 2.0 dropped to 1.1.

After that I decided to check the condenser since that was suggested. The You Tube sites suggested using the 20M ohms setting. Mine does not have that even though it has about 6 settings, so I used the 2M ohms setting. The condenser read 2.0 and stayed there, did not increase as the You Tube sight said it should increase. So that indicates to me that it could be bad.

However, I did notice this time taking the distributor cap off that the inside of the cap was filed down in the inside of the terminals around were the plug wires connect and also noticed the rotor itself seemed to come on and off much easier than before. It seemed much looser than previous.

So with all of this I am going to purchase the bushings and anything else that looks worn, replace those since I have the distributor off and replace all the electrical in the distributor and then see if that solves the problem.

And if you know or anyone that might reads this knows, how can you determine if a distributor is the original or a replacement? Did the original have any distinguishing markings to indicate original. Just wondering if this is an ofter market product itself.

Thanks all.
 
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JMOR
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: 8N front mount distributor replacement Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Ron Petterson wrote:
(quoted from post at 14:52:56 07/26/20) Tim, Thanks for all this information. Someone yesterday asked for "actual" readings on the coil and not "it appears right", so I went back today and rechecked my numbers. The coil reading at 200 ohm setting (lowest on my ohm meter) from the resistor to the coil connector read 1.0 to 1.1 fluctuating. Then I connected to the pig tail inside the coil that connects to the top screw in the distributor. From the resistor to the pig tail 2.0 dropped to 1.1.

After that I decided to check the condenser since that was suggested. The You Tube sites suggested using the 20M ohms setting. Mine does not have that even though it has about 6 settings, so I used the 2M ohms setting. The condenser read 2.0 and stayed there, did not increase as the You Tube sight said it should increase. So that indicates to me that it could be bad.

However, I did notice this time taking the distributor cap off that the inside of the cap was filed down in the inside of the terminals around were the plug wires connect and also noticed the rotor itself seemed to come on and off much easier than before. It seemed much looser than previous.

So with all of this I am going to purchase the bushings and anything else that looks worn, replace those since I have the distributor off and replace all the electrical in the distributor and then see if that solves the problem.

And if you know or anyone that might reads this knows, how can you determine if a distributor is the original or a replacement? Did the original have any distinguishing markings to indicate original. Just wondering if this is an ofter market product itself.

Thanks all.
I have more or less reached the conclusion that you are not 'helpable'. Reminds me of an old song about "looking in all the wrong places". Bet you don't have a clue as to removing & installing those bushings either.
 
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a32vickyhotrod
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 8N front mount distributor replacement Reply to specific post Reply with quote

You have repeatedly said, "the only way you can return spark to the system is to file or change points".
If that is true, I would be looking for a reason your points are burning up so fast.
Or I would be looking at what I could possible be fixing in the process of removing and or replacing the distributor, like moving a grounded out wire or open connection.
If your bushings are worn enough to change the gap to where the points will burn, that should be evident when bench setting the points.
One last thing you did not state clearly whether, or not, you are changing out the condenser each time,or how long that condenser has been in place. Also you didn't say how well the engine runs once started,
 
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Ron Petterson
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 8N front mount distributor replacement Reply to specific post Reply with quote

JMOR, thanks for the feedback. Your assistance is appreciated.
 
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Ron Petterson
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:26 pm    Post subject: Re: 8N front mount distributor replacement Reply to specific post Reply with quote

32..I have replaced condenser, but not each time.

Once running, the tractor runs smooth, idles way down to a very slow idle well and not "missing" at high
speed. Does not "bog" down while using bushhog or plow.

The issue since the 90's is a starting issue after use, which I said started out as an every 6 mth issue
or 50-75 hours of run time. Cold or hot, no difference. As the years went by, the time between "no
starts" got shorter. so I posted question in the mid 2000's asking about electronic ignition. Was told by
many they are not good alternative for 6V system.So did not convert.

So now it is happening regularily and I asked about replacing distributor and received much info, which I
responded to, including voltage and amp readings and checking other stuff. Replacing distributor was not
recommended. So after receiving the various info, I pulled the distributor and checked the condenser. It
read 2.0 constant on my ohm meter, did not increase as it seems it should.

So with all the info I have received and after looking at distributor closely, I am going to replace
breaker plate as it is scored and chipped ( like filed small "v's" around the top edge) at the area where
the rotor attaches to the cam, and installing all Blue Streak components as recommened. Points,
condenser, distributor cap. And I ordered a front bushing in case the breaker plate does not have one,
which it should. When setting pounts or inspecting cam, there is no visable horizontal movement within
the bushings.

JMOR gave me the best advice. Your stupid, forget it!

But stupid is trying to fix something that is not readily apparent as to the cause. So that is me. Would
be much easier if some ohm reading was way off.

Thanks for your assistance!
 
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a32vickyhotrod
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: 8N front mount distributor replacement Reply to specific post Reply with quote

It sounds like you have a plan in place, it will be interesting to see the outcome. Please make sure to get back to us.

One thing I would do if you experience a no spark problem again is to run a temporary jumper wire from your battery to the coil and measure the voltage at the coil terminal. . Just to make sure the problem is not the wire, resister or ignition switch causing the problem. Also, wondering to about the resister allowing too much voltage to the system burning the points, but not too likely.

I think if you still have ignition problems after all this I would be looking at the coil as suspect. I like others don't like throwing parts at problems but sometimes I am weak.

Also in the back of my mind, I hope you have diagnosed this correctly as a no spark problem and not something else.
Good luck!
 
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hunkydory
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 8N front mount distributor replacement Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Ron Petterson wrote:
(quoted from post at 14:26:31 07/27/20) I am going to replace breaker plate as it is scored and chipped ( like filed small "v's" around the top edge) at the area where the rotor attaches to the cam

This is interesting. Would you happen to have a picture of the scoring? This could be a clue to what is going on.
 
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