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Water in Hydro Oil

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lwwilks
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:34 am    Post subject: Water in Hydro Oil Reply to specific post Reply with quote

1941 Ford 9n - I don't know how long it has been since the engine oil and hydro oil was last changed, my brother-in-laws uncle passed away two years ago that took care of the tractor...
As I was removing the first of three plugs to drain the hydro oil I had water start to run out. I estimate about an ounce or two of water drained out before it started turning milky. Once it turned milky I tightened the plug up and dumped the water from the pan and then started draining the rest of the hydro fluid which was milky then black... I have not pulled the other two plugs yet. I don't know how long the water has been in the hydro oil. The tractor was last ran last weekend mowing around their little ranch. What should be the best plan of action? Should I try flushing the transmission/pto system with kerosene and diesel to clean out any remaining water and then refill with appropriate hydro oil or am I looking at a total tear down to clean it up?

 
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grhuck
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: Water in Hydro Oil Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-lwwilks wrote:
(quoted from post at 12:34:46 09/18/20) 1941 Ford 9n - I don't know how long it has been since the engine oil and hydro oil was last changed, my brother-in-laws uncle passed away two years ago that took care of the tractor...
As I was removing the first of three plugs to drain the hydro oil I had water start to run out. I estimate about an ounce or two of water drained out before it started turning milky. Once it turned milky I tightened the plug up and dumped the water from the pan and then started draining the rest of the hydro fluid which was milky then black... I have not pulled the other two plugs yet. I don't know how long the water has been in the hydro oil. The tractor was last ran last weekend mowing around their little ranch. What should be the best plan of action? Should I try flushing the transmission/pto system with kerosene and diesel to clean out any remaining water and then refill with appropriate hydro oil or am I looking at a total tear down to clean it up?
<img src="/cvphotos/cvphoto56363.jpg">


I've seen worse looking transmission fluid. If the tractor was running, shifting ok and the hydraulics worked with no undue noises I'd pull the other 2 plugs to drain as much fluid as I could, reinstall the plugs and pour some kerosene or D2 in till ti shows full on the dipstick, let her sit for a day or 2 and drian it back out, run a magnet around inside your drain pan to see if it picks any metal. It that doesn't show anything too alarming refill with 90W Hytran and see what happens.

Worst case scenario is that the water froze and broke something but you'll know that soon enough with an oil change and test drive.
 
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Bruce (VA)
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Water in Hydro Oil Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Have you ever dropped the pump and really cleaned it out? It might be time to do it.

Flushing it out doesn't get rid of the hard-packed crud in the pump base.

See tips 3 & 4 re re-filling it.

If you operate the tractor below 32* F, you will be much happier w/ UTF instead of 90w.
75 Tips

 
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lwwilks
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Water in Hydro Oil Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Bruce (VA) wrote:
(quoted from post at 13:18:10 09/18/20) Have you ever dropped the pump and really cleaned it out? It might be time to do it.

Flushing it out doesn't get rid of the hard-packed crud in the pump base.

See tips 3 & 4 re re-filling it.

If you operate the tractor below 32* F, you will be much happier w/ UTF instead of 90w.
75 Tips


I inherited maintaining this beauty and do not know much on her previous maintenance...
We are in deep South Texas... so time at or below 32* F is almost as rare as chicken lips... Smile
 
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lwwilks
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Water in Hydro Oil Reply to specific post Reply with quote


When I was mowing with it last weekend it shifted and ran good... had a little whining noise that I've heard when I mowed with it before... nothing rough or chunky or clunky like I have heard in a rear-end going out before.
 
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R Geiger
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Water in Hydro Oil Reply to specific post Reply with quote

lwwilks wrote:
(quoted from post at 15:19:34 09/18/20)
When I was mowing with it last weekend it shifted and ran good... had a little whining noise that I've heard when I mowed with it before... nothing rough or chunky or clunky like I have heard in a rear-end going out before.
Drain all three plugs and let it set to get all you an out. refill with UTF and use it.
 
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showcrop
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Water in Hydro Oil Reply to specific post Reply with quote


lw, your oil situation is perfectly normal for the 9N under the conditions under which most of them are used these days. Do you ever get humid air where the moisture condenses on metal surfaces? If you do, when the moisture is condensing on the outside of the tractors housings it is also condensing on the inside. When the N was in daily use and working it didn't take long for the temperature of the oil to get high enough to drive the moisture out. If it runs for just a few minutes under light load moisture will build up. The oil that they used in them 70 years ago didn't absorb moisture. If it did accumulate during quiet times it stayed on the bottom of the cases where it could be drained out periodically just as you did. The additives in modern UTF, which your tractor probably has in it, absorb moisture much more readily than the oil originally used. You need not worry about flushing the oil out. Most Ns in use today have moisture laden UTF in them because more modern is always better right? If you will be using the N hard enough to get it hot for two hours every other month, that is all you need to do. Otherwise plan on changing it at least twice a year, or go back to the original 80-90 oil and just drain the moisture off the bottom every six months.
 
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lha
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Water in Hydro Oil Reply to specific post Reply with quote

When I lived in Deep South Texas,it got below freezing a few times a year. The last time I was there,it snowed in Rancho viejo.
I don't,however think that a hydraulic case would freeze.
 
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TheOldHokie
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Water in Hydro Oil Reply to specific post Reply with quote

showcrop wrote:
(quoted from post at 19:18:02 09/18/20)
lw, your oil situation is perfectly normal for the 9N under the conditions under which most of them are used these days. Do you ever get humid air where the moisture condenses on metal surfaces? If you do, when the moisture is condensing on the outside of the tractors housings it is also condensing on the inside. When the N was in daily use and working it didn't take long for the temperature of the oil to get high enough to drive the moisture out. If it runs for just a few minutes under light load moisture will build up. The oil that they used in them 70 years ago didn't absorb moisture. If it did accumulate during quiet times it stayed on the bottom of the cases where it could be drained out periodically just as you did. The additives in modern UTF, which your tractor probably has in it, absorb moisture much more readily than the oil originally used. You need not worry about flushing the oil out. Most Ns in use today have moisture laden UTF in them because more modern is always better right? If you will be using the N hard enough to get it hot for two hours every other month, that is all you need to do. Otherwise plan on changing it at least twice a year, or go back to the original 80-90 oil and just drain the moisture off the bottom every six months.


Chocolate milk in the sump is not normal or desirable and ou have this absorbtion idea backwards. You want the oil to absorb condensation rather than allowing it to remain free. When absorbed the water is INVISIBLE.and HARMLESS e.g. - no chocolate milk. The gear oil in the picture has visible free water in it. The condensation has not been absorbed and instead has formed a chocolate milk emulsion. This emulsion and free water inhibits lubrication, promotes rust, poses a freezing hazard, and is bad for gears and hydraulics.

Water management engineering was pioneered by John Deere in their HyGard UTTO at least a decade ago and has become an industry standard performance metric for UTTO. Here is how Case engineering explains it with regard to their HyTran replacement for the old Ford M2C-134 hydraulic/transmission oil. You will find similar explanations and products from other major tractor OEMs.


HY-TRAN ULTRA UTTO (MS1209) HYDRAULIC/TRANSMISSION FLUIDS FOR CASE, INTERNATIONAL HARVESTER & CASE IH EQUIPMENT

Case IH Hy-Tran Ultra will absorb at least 1% water and still remain stable as demonstrated by the Case MT-805 Water Tolerance Test.

Case IH Engineering has determined that it is essential to have moisture (primarily from condensation in service) absorbed without causing additive or water separation.

Free water can promote rusting and can accumulate in low spots and freeze, resulting in restricted flow and pump cavitation.
 
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showcrop
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Water in Hydro Oil Reply to specific post Reply with quote


TOH, outstanding treatise as always!! One little problem though, it applies to tractors and other machines that are in regular use. Sadly not to those in occasional short use.
 
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TheOldHokie
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Water in Hydro Oil Reply to specific post Reply with quote

showcrop wrote:
(quoted from post at 21:47:55 09/18/20)
TOH, outstanding treatise as always!! One little problem though, it applies to tractors and other machines that are in regular use. Sadly not to those in occasional short use.


Darn - I keep forgetting that part.

TOH
 
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TheOldHokie
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:11 am    Post subject: Re: Water in Hydro Oil Reply to specific post Reply with quote

showcrop wrote:
(quoted from post at 21:47:55 09/18/20)
TOH, outstanding treatise as always!! One little problem though, it applies to tractors and other machines that are in regular use. Sadly not to those in occasional short use.


Turns out I have a nearly empty 5G bucket of cheap UTTO that I have been using for makeup oil in all four of my tractors. It was opened some time last calendar year and has been sitting on the floor of the shop, covered by a loose fitting metal lid, but otherwise exposed to the open air. When I need a little makeup oil for one of the tractors I pump it out of this bucket. Rest assured nobody has "started" the bucket and got it up to "operational" temperature to burn off any water it might have absorbed. Consequently it occurred to me that this should be a good test of the theory that OEM transmission/hydraulic oil engineering "does not apply to those (tractors) in short occassional use". This is what this particular UTTO looks like after simply aging in that open bucket for roughly a year and here is my amateur analysis of this unintended "experiment".

The oil was exposed to ambient atmosphere for a period of roughly one year. During that time atmospheric humidity varied as high as 95% for periods of weeks or more. The oil is still a bright clear light amber color but based on what I know about the hygroscopic nature of tractor oils and additives I am sure this oil has absorbed some atmospheric water via that mechanism. It may even be 100% saturated at this point but it would require additional testing to quantify its actual saturation point and exactly how much water it may have absorbed. The chemical absorption did not produce any visible aqueous "chocolate milk" emulsion or form a visible layer of free water..

My conclusion based on those observations is this UTTO won't behave differently sitting around in the sump of your only used once a week/month/year 8N (or any other make/model) tractor.

TOH




 
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showcrop
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:58 am    Post subject: Re: Water in Hydro Oil Reply to specific post Reply with quote

TheOldHokie wrote:
(quoted from post at 09:11:32 09/20/20)
showcrop wrote:
(quoted from post at 21:47:55 09/18/20)
TOH, outstanding treatise as always!! One little problem though, it applies to tractors and other machines that are in regular use. Sadly not to those in occasional short use.


Turns out I have a nearly empty 5G bucket of cheap UTTO that I have been using for makeup oil in all four of my tractors. It was opened some time last calendar year and has been sitting on the floor of the shop, covered by a loose fitting metal lid, but otherwise exposed to the open air. When I need a little makeup oil for one of the tractors I pump it out of this bucket. Rest assured nobody has "started" the bucket and got it up to "operational" temperature to burn off any water it might have absorbed. Consequently it occurred to me that this should be a good test of the theory that OEM transmission/hydraulic oil engineering "does not apply to those (tractors) in short occassional use". This is what this particular UTTO looks like after simply aging in that open bucket for roughly a year and here is my amateur analysis of this unintended "experiment".

The oil was exposed to ambient atmosphere for a period of roughly one year. During that time atmospheric humidity varied as high as 95% for periods of weeks or more. The oil is still a bright clear light amber color but based on what I know about the hygroscopic nature of tractor oils and additives I am sure this oil has absorbed some atmospheric water via that mechanism. It may even be 100% saturated at this point but it would require additional testing to quantify its actual saturation point and exactly how much water it may have absorbed. The chemical absorption did not produce any visible aqueous "chocolate milk" emulsion or form a visible layer of free water..

My conclusion based on those observations is this UTTO won't behave differently sitting around in the sump of your only used once a week/month/year 8N (or any other make/model) tractor.

TOH






So, TOH, you tend to get a lot of condensation on the sides of buckets down there? We don't tend to get that here. Condensation of any consequence is pretty much only on fairly massive structures like the cast housings, weights etc. In fact, in my shop, before I started controlling the humidity I would get puddles on the floor under tractors under the right conditions. I never had any that I noticed on plastic buckets though. They tell me that plastic is a good insulator. When I double split my 9000 a year after I got it there was a very rusty area on the PTO clutch housing that matched up with a low point at the center of the rear housing. You could see that the condensation had been dripping in considerable quantity from that point onto the PTO housing then on down into the oil.
 
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TheOldHokie
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply to specific post Reply with quote

showcrop wrote:
(quoted from post at 12:58:24 09/20/20)
So, TOH, you tend to get a lot of condensation on the sides of buckets down there? We don't tend to get that here. Condensation of any consequence is pretty much only on fairly massive structures like the cast housings, weights etc. In fact, in my shop, before I started controlling the humidity I would get puddles on the floor under tractors under the right conditions. I never had any that I noticed on plastic buckets though. They tell me that plastic is a good insulator. When I double split my 9000 a year after I got it there was a very rusty area on the PTO clutch housing that matched up with a low point at the center of the rear housing. You could see that the condensation had been dripping in considerable quantity from that point onto the PTO housing then on down into the oil.


Precisely - its a controlled experiment and I very carefully explained the physical chemistry underlying my experimental analysis. The plastic bucket essentially eliminates contamination from condensation. The ONLY way moisture is being introduced into the oil is by hygroscopic absorption from the air. Hygroscopic absorption STOPS once the oil is 100% saturated. The polar bonds have all been taken up and no more water can be pulled from the air. The oil is no longer hygroscopic, ALL of the absorbed water is in solution, and there is no free water to collect or emulsify. The chemistry is in equilibrium and will stay that way ad infinitum. Hygroscopic absorption is self limiting at the saturation point of the oil. It does not matter how hygroscopic any particular formulation of oil is it can only pull in as much as it can hold in solution and no more.

The water which creates the real problems in tractor and hydraulic sumps is FREE water which typically enters the system as condensate or external leakage from rain or washdown. Keep in mind all automotive oils are hygroscopic - UTTO and engine oils just happen to be a bit more hygroscopic than conventional gear oil. On a virgin fill of any of these oils the first small quantities of liquid water that enter the system are absorbed via hygroscopic attraction and "disappear" into solution with the oil in much the same way granular table salt disappears into a glass of water. As the Case document explains as long as this uptake is properly controlled (specifically does not trigger precipitation of chemical additives already dissolved in the oil) the water is held dissolved in the oil and and its deleterious effects are minimized. Case claims the HyGard formulation can safely take up 1% or more of free water which in an N-series would be about 4 liquid ounces of condensate. Once the volume of condensate exceeds the saturation point of ANY oil, UTTO, engine oil, or gear oil, there are no hygroscopic bonds to take more in and the oil is no longer hygroscopic. It is chemically incapable of pulling more water from the air and any additional liquid condensate or leakage that enters the system pools up or forms an emulsion with the oil. This is analogous to the way grains of table salt will begin to collect on the bottom of that glass of water if you add more salt than the water can hold in solution.

Since UTTO can generally absorb more water than traditional gear oil it is actually more not less effective at preventing the formation of emulsification and free water - e.g. it can absorb more condensate and hold it in solution rather than let it pool up or emulsify.

This is about as clear as I can make it.

TOH
 
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showcrop
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply to specific post Reply with quote

TheOldHokie wrote:
(quoted from post at 11:43:30 09/20/20)
showcrop wrote:
(quoted from post at 12:58:24 09/20/20)
So, TOH, you tend to get a lot of condensation on the sides of buckets down there? We don't tend to get that here. Condensation of any consequence is pretty much only on fairly massive structures like the cast housings, weights etc. In fact, in my shop, before I started controlling the humidity I would get puddles on the floor under tractors under the right conditions. I never had any that I noticed on plastic buckets though. They tell me that plastic is a good insulator. When I double split my 9000 a year after I got it there was a very rusty area on the PTO clutch housing that matched up with a low point at the center of the rear housing. You could see that the condensation had been dripping in considerable quantity from that point onto the PTO housing then on down into the oil.


Precisely - its a controlled experiment and I very carefully explained the physical chemistry underlying my experimental analysis. The plastic bucket essentially eliminates contamination from condensation. The ONLY way moisture is being introduced into the oil is by hygroscopic absorption from the air. Hygroscopic absorption STOPS once the oil is 100% saturated. The polar bonds have all been taken up and no more water can be pulled from the air. The oil is no longer hygroscopic, ALL of the absorbed water is in solution, and there is no free water to collect or emulsify. The chemistry is in equilibrium and will stay that way ad infinitum. Hygroscopic absorption is self limiting at the saturation point of the oil. It does not matter how hygroscopic any particular formulation of oil is it can only pull in as much as it can hold in solution and no more.

The water which creates the real problems in tractor and hydraulic sumps is FREE water which typically enters the system as condensate or external leakage from rain or washdown. Keep in mind all automotive oils are hygroscopic - UTTO and engine oils just happen to be a bit more hygroscopic than conventional gear oil. On a virgin fill of any of these oils the first small quantities of liquid water that enter the system are absorbed via hygroscopic attraction and "disappear" into solution with the oil in much the same way granular table salt disappears into a glass of water. As the Case document explains as long as this uptake is properly controlled (specifically does not trigger precipitation of chemical additives already dissolved in the oil) the water is held dissolved in the oil and and its deleterious effects are minimized. Case claims the HyGard formulation can safely take up 1% or more of free water which in an N-series would be about 4 liquid ounces of condensate. Once the volume of condensate exceeds the saturation point of ANY oil, UTTO, engine oil, or gear oil, there are no hygroscopic bonds to take more in and the oil is no longer hygroscopic. It is chemically incapable of pulling more water from the air and any additional liquid condensate or leakage that enters the system pools up or forms an emulsion with the oil. This is analogous to the way grains of table salt will begin to collect on the bottom of that glass of water if you add more salt than the water can hold in solution.

Since UTTO can generally absorb more water than traditional gear oil it is actually more not less effective at preventing the formation of emulsification and free water - e.g. it can absorb more condensate and hold it in solution rather than let it pool up or emulsify.

This is about as clear as I can make it.

TOH



Thank you TOH for another great treatise and for going to such great lengths to make it clear to one who has only basic college chemistry as in geology curriculum. You are staying completely away from my view on the topic though. Could you comment on the effect that heat generated by a tractor working for hours has on both absorbed moisture and moisture held by the oil in emulsification?
 
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