Yesterday's Tractor Co.
Shop Now View Cart
   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 9N,2N,8N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   Traditional YT Forum ViewClassic View   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile    Log inLog in 

Smoking TO-35


 
Post new topic    
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
agdodge4x4
Regular


Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 209


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:23 pm    Post subject: Smoking TO-35 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

After I rebuilt the carb and got the tractor running, I have a smoker. BAD...there is carbon built up on the lower arm links where the exhaust is. At 2400 RPM, smoke billows out. Blue smoke. Thick smoke. Asphyxiating smoke. This is not the kind of smoke that you describe as "a little smoke". It's so thick that I had the tractor running 200' from the back of my house and the wife was worried about a fire because she saw smoke in the front of the house.

I cannot fathom how rings can be THAT bad. There is no way you can convince me that the rings are so bad that it will run but it will produce smoke like this. Also, There is a CARBON BLOOM on the spark plugs. One of my plugs was slightly 'less than tight' and oil SEEPED out from it.

So....I ask this...what are the odds I can pull the head on this Z134 and immediately find the issue with valves in the head? What are the odds that the guides or something in the head is so worn out that oil is pouring back into the cylinders? I ask because I cannot carry the cost of a $1100 rebuild on the full motor, but I can absorb a head job from my local reputable machine shop.

So...what do yall think?
 
Back to top
View user's profile
1Rustic1
Regular


Joined: 08 Sep 2020
Posts: 252


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:22 am    Post subject: Re: Smoking TO-35 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

agdodge4x4 wrote:
(quoted from post at 21:23:21 12/15/20) After I rebuilt the carb and got the tractor running, I have a smoker.

So...what do yall think?


Without knowing the story beforehand, answers will vary.

Personally, first I would add mineral spirits to the crankcase and run it awhile to see if I get lucky.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Bruce(OR)
Tractor Guru


Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 3559


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:20 am    Post subject: Re: Smoking TO-35 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Steve@Adavnce said what? Then again, I did have to go back 7 pages for you to find it and bring it forward for you.
Hope this helps, let us know...



1. The smoke:
Yes, do change the oil to 15w40. Any chance it is over full or contaminated with gas?

Were the cylinders oiled prior to storage or before it was started? Possibly it's just residual oil in the exhaust.

If it was stuck, chances are the rings are stuck. They rarely free up on their own. Sorry...

2. The carburetor:

The small screw id the idle mixture screw. Turning it in richens the mix, out leans it. It actually adjusts air bleed, not fuel, so it's
backward of modern carbs.

The idle must be down around 400-500 RPM. Any higher and the adjustment will have no effect. Back it out to rough idle, then back in to
best idle. It has minimal effect, so the adjustment is limited.

The large screw is the main mix adjust. Turning the screw in leans it, out richens it. Start about 2 turns off the seat.

To adjust it, idle the engine down, then suddenly goose the throttle, observe the response. Turn the screw in 1/4 turn, repeat the test.
Keep doing this, 1/4 turn in at a time until the engine falters on quick throttle. Then start backing the screw out 1/4 turn at a time
until the engine takes full quick throttle from idle without balking. A single puff of black smoke is desirable.

But, the carb adjustment should be the last thing you do. The carb will only function as well as the rest of the engine. If the ignition is
right, air cleaner serviced, thermostat working, compression good, valves adjusted, only then can the carb be successfully adjusted.

3. The throttle:

Sounds like either there is a governor problem, or the throttle linkage is out of adjustment.

Start with the engine off. Set the dash lever to idle. The carb throttle arm should be held tightly against the idle stop screw. Then set
the dash lever to fast. The carb throttle arm should be spring loaded to the full open position.

Next, disconnect the throttle control rod (the link from the governor arm to the carb) by pulling the pin from the rod clevis.

Set the dash lever to a mid position. Hold the disconnected rod with your left hand rearward, hold the governor link gently to the forward
position. You are now in control of the engine speed, so be careful. You right hand is also close to the belt, so be extra careful!

Have an assistant start the engine. Gently bring the engine RPM up. As the RPM comes up, you should feel the governor arm begin to push
back. Don't hold it, let it do what it wants to do, just hold slight forward pressure. Continue to bring the RPM up until the governor arm
reaches it's full rearward travel, note the position where it stops.

Shut off the engine. Now adjust the length of the carb rod by screwing the clevis in or out on the rod so the length equals the noted
position of the governor arm at it's rearward position, with the carb against the idle stop.

See what happens here? The governor spring wants to pull the carb wide open, while the spinning weights try to push it back closed. The
faster the engine, the harder the weights push back. Engine slows down, the spring opens the throttle more. It's a balancing act.

Now, if you did not feel steady push back on the governor arm, there is a problem with the governor. The governor is behind the timing
cover, and they do have a reputation for failing. The ball cage will break, letting pieces of the cage fall into the oil pan, and run
through the timing and oil pump gears. Not good! If it is broken, the governor will not function.

But if the governor is working, and the adjustment was successful, you should now have smooth throttle response. To make the final governed
speed adjustment, set the dash lever to full speed, loosen the U bolt above the generator, rotate the spring lever to get 2000 RPM on the
engine.

Sounds confusing, but once you get in there it's not. You can find more instructions and a diagram online. Search "TO35 governor adjust".

4. The prominent miss:

Could be lots of things. Have you run a compression test?

Do revisit the distributor. The shaft bearing must be tight, Any side play and the points will not stay set. Be sire the centrifugal
advance is working. The rotor should turn a few degrees CCW, then spring back when released. If it's frozen, or slow to spring back, the
distributor will need to come out, be taken apart and repaired.

Check the valve train, look for broken valve springs, check the valve clearance. While the tank is off, be a good time to rinse it out.

Check the air cleaner. There is a wire mesh inside the canister that is often overlooked. It must be periodically cleaned, not an easy job,
but needs to be done.

Hope this helps, let us know...
 
Back to top
View user's profile
pomester
Long Time User


Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 763


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:14 am    Post subject: Re: Smoking TO-35 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

"...what are the odds I can pull the head on this Z134 and immediately find the issue with valves in the head? What are the odds that the guides or something in the head is so worn out that oil is pouring back into the cylinders?"

The odds are pretty good that the valve guides are worn badly.

The odds are also pretty good that if you pull the head you will open a can of worms where there is no place to stop. Ridged cylinders, possibly broken pistons, etc. If you have the head off, it's a relatively small job to drop the pan, remove the rod caps, push the pistons out, and hone the cylinders/replace the rings and rod bearings (don't forget to check the wrist pin bushings)... if the pistons and cylinders are in reasonable shape. A fresh head increased the stress on the rest of the components.

Dunno - I've been where you are at. Sucks. It's worth trying the other suggestions, mineral spirits/ATF in the oil, and a good way to clean carbon out of the combustion chamber is to load a spray bottle with water and mist it thru the carburetor while the engine is running. The odds of curing your issues that way are small but it doesn't cost anything.

A compression test is in order.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
1Rustic1
Regular


Joined: 08 Sep 2020
Posts: 252


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: Smoking TO-35 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Bruce(OR) wrote:
(quoted from post at 05:20:29 12/16/20) Steve@Adavnce said what? Then again, I did have to go back 7 pages for you to find it and bring it forward for you.


Hope this helps, let us know...



Help ain't the word for it my friend. I been takin notes from you guys since day one.

I hope he tries the GET LUCKY METHOD "the liquid kind" first. Pick your own potion. Cheap n easy

Worse case switch it over to alcohol , burn off a lil oil


 
Back to top
View user's profile
agdodge4x4
Regular


Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 209


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:12 am    Post subject: Re: Smoking TO-35 Reply to specific post Reply with quote


So in regards to additives, I dumped half a can of seafoam directly into the cylinders and let it sit for two weeks. It helped nothing. I also added Rislone to the oil when I changed it. It also has not helped anything. As for residual oil in the cylinders....I don't know how long it takes to 'burn off', but I would imagine 4 hours of cumulative run time up to operating temps would do the trick, no?

As for the miss....all four plugs are WET with oil at shutdown. Not a light coating...SOAKING DRIPPING WET along with carbon crystals growing from the plugs. I have zero doubt that the engine missing is directly related to oil snuffing out the spark at times. It's a random miss that causes the engine to hiccup as its running for the entire duration.

Governor....I have adjuster the governor as per directions. The governor works very poorly when the engine is cold. Only at operating temps does teh governor seem to limit the max RPM. When cold, It will overspeed if you don't catch it soon. It will also rev up and down if you aren't sitting at an idle. Once wamred up...it seems to work fine. At best, the front cover probably needs to be removed for an inspection.


Anyway, I know the worst case scenario, and it is what it is if I get to that point.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Bruce(OR)
Tractor Guru


Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 3559


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Smoking TO-35 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Ah yes, more info and the crystal ball is clearing......... . .
Busted piston ring pumping oil into one cylinder which is getting worked throughout the intake manifold due to valve overlap and volumetric
efficiency polluting the other cylinders. A comp check might locate the bad cyl either being too high or too low and then needs to be
followed up with a bore scope and if not found, remove head and look for scratch in cyl wall. Oopsy.
Slight miss might say a low comp cyl, however oil fouled plug might also be your pwoblem. . .
Religious piston perhaps?
 
Back to top
View user's profile
J.Wondergem
Tractor Guru


Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 5983


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Smoking TO-35 Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Hole in the piston?
 
Back to top
View user's profile
1Rustic1
Regular


Joined: 08 Sep 2020
Posts: 252


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Smoking TO-35 Reply to specific post Reply with quote


On the bright side he has a good carb n apparently fairly decent oil pressure. Fergues are easy to work on, most could be done in frame.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
J.Wondergem
Tractor Guru


Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 5983


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Smoking TO-35 Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Forget my reply. I wasn't thinking. One hole in a piston wont wet all the plugs. Sorry.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
agdodge4x4
Regular


Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 209


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: Smoking TO-35 Reply to specific post Reply with quote


Good news is that I have a compression tester. That is going to be my next step. I think this will shed a LOT of light on the possible issue.

I'll let you all know what I find!
 
Back to top
View user's profile
sunbeam
Long Time User


Joined: 18 Sep 2013
Posts: 980


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: Smoking TO-35 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

A inframe kit on this site is less than $300.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Boss Hog
Long Time User


Joined: 15 Jan 2002
Posts: 985
Location: Illinois

Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:39 am    Post subject: Re: Smoking TO-35 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

My first thought is that it's grossly over-full of oil.

That's certainly something that's easy to check, and easy to fix.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
agdodge4x4
Regular


Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 209


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Smoking TO-35 Reply to specific post Reply with quote


What about heads and valve guides? Can I do all of this work without expensive specialty tools?
 
Back to top
View user's profile
pomester
Long Time User


Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 763


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Smoking TO-35 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

"Can I do all of this work without expensive specialty tools?"

Not really - Valve spring compressors can be had relatively inexpensively and disassembly is doable. Valve guide tools are also relatively inexpensive or you can make one yourself if you have a lathe. Likely you can beat the guides out of the head, but it's better done with a press. You can beat the new guides into the head (heat the head in the oven, put the guides in the freezer, be careful not to get the guides cocked going in) , but it's much, much better and more safely done with a press.

Grinding the valves and the seats has to be done with the appropriate expensive tool(s). It's possible you may need to install valve seats, again only done with the appropriate and expensive specialty tool(s).

The head needs to be checked for flatness and will possibly benefit from a couple passes over a special and expensive surfacing machine.

Bottom line - take the head to a machine shop and have them recondition it. They own and know how to use the expensive specialty tools and a good shop has the experience to know what needs to be done and what can be left alone. It's really hard to do a good job of this on the cheap.

And replacing the studs/washers/nuts that secure the head is a good idea - a least a critical inspection and thread cleaning (with a wire brush, not a die). Head gaskets are a common problem and one of the issues is the condition of the studs and nuts not allowing an accurate and consistent torque of the head.

Can of worms.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
:   
Post new topic    Yesterday's Tractors Forum Index -> Harry Ferguson All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  

TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

YT Home  |  Forums

Modern View Forum powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters