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850 problems


 
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MeanGene1
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Joined: 23 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:37 pm    Post subject: 850 problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I've had this pretty clean 850 for a while, Wagner loader, big pie weights, power steering etc. Worst problem was someone had put an 8N carb on it, and the carb was also completely rusted solid inside- but it would actually start and run for about 30 seconds. PO had stuck a 12V battery in it at negative ground, so charging system was cooked. Found a correct carb on the flea, with a kit and a 12V alt kit from the site. Installed a key start ignition switch with a car solenoid. At this point it started and ran great. Put another 5 gal of gas in it and called it a night. In the morning, a strong smell of gas- the old tank had erupted. OK, got a new tank from the sight, and also added a (larger line size) Farmall sediment bulb at the right rear location replacing the leaky screwdriver style in the middle of the tank, so it now has too sediment bowls, easy to service. I was happy to be able to install the new tank by only removing the right side of the hood- took a little weaseling but got it in around the loader. Lit it up and running great again. I had also re-sealed the loader dump cylinder, so had it running for about 15 min checking it over and getting to temp. The I noticed the oil by the shifter- coming from under the steering wheel, out of the column. I hate pulling rusted on original steering wheels- Grrrr...
 
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michford
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Posts: 720
Location: Michigan

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 850 problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Sometimes when it rains it pours. Why would you bypass the safety of having to be in neutral to start with a key switch and car solenoid? All of the parts to keep the safe means of starting only in neutral are readily available.
 
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Tim PloughNman Daley
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Joined: 18 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:31 am    Post subject: Re: 850 problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I see lotsa issues out of the gate. Yeah, a 12 battery will work POS or NEG GRND, but your 6V GEN won't charge a 12V battery so once it wears down, that's it, but your charging system wouldn't be "cooked". The N-Series M/S carb has a shorter hole spread on the flange mounting surface. What model TSX carb did you have? What do you have now? The solenoid is on the Starter Motor. It has 3-Wires. What do you have on your "car" unit? Define gas tank "erupting" - I don't understand how and why. I would have taken the tank to a reliable shop, evaluate, have it boiled and cleaned, repaired if rusted out, coated with POR-15, and go from there. OEM parts always best to rebuild - new aftermarket stuff mainly Cheena made junk. A larger line? Why ? A Farmall Sediment Bulb? Why? You don't need two and certainly not the wrong one. Do you have the ESSENTIAL MANUALS? OEM Owner Manual, I&T FO-20, and 53-59 MPC are required reading. If you don't know how your electrical setup is/was originally, how can you possibly do a 12V switch over job correctly? One system at a time. Get fuel corrected first with right parts. Marvel-Schebler TSX 593 or 706 carb. Correct SED BULB (only ONE needed) and fuel line -get at Dennis Carpenter. Perform Fuel Flow Test. Next, get your electrical corrected. 6V/POS GRN uses: 6V battery; 3-Wire/2-Brush 20A, 'B' Circuit GEN; Voltage Regulator; Starter Motor with 3-Wire Solenoid; Ignition Key switch; and AMMETER. A 12V switch over job deletes the GEN and VR, replaces with a 1-Wire (3-wire OPTL) alternator and a 12V battery, NEG GRN, and installs a 12V coil, also optional but if a 6V coil is used, need a 1-OHM external resistor. Leaking loader cylinder and steering column have nothing to do with electrical and/or fuel. Next, after fuel system is correct, move on to the electrical. A 6 volt battery does not mean your system is set up for the OEM 6V/POS GRN system. Likewise, a 12V battery does not mean you are wired correctly for a 12V system. Eschew car automotive parts and get the right tractor parts. Start with the system you want to use.

You need a strong battery to:

1. Spin the starter
2. Engage the Bendix
3. Provide voltage to the coil.

Take it to a trusty local starter/alternator or auto parts store and get it bench tested under load on their special machine. They will test it for free. While he does that, go thru the entire wiring system and verify all is correct. Use a VOM set to Continuity, not a test light and don’t use wire colors to verify and don’t use a test light. Having the correct battery cables is essential as well. 6V cables need to be a heavier gauge than 12V. 00 gauge, thick as your thumb is best, and keep posts clean and tight. Whichever system you use, you MUST have a fan belt tension device set up. Your battery WILL NOT CHARGE without proper belt tension. Once issues all verified to be correct, then can work on a tuneup if needed. Breaker point gap is .024" - .026". Spark Plug (CHAMPION H10 or H12; or AUTO-LITE 437) gap is .025"-.028". Lube and test cap. Check for slop. Then, set timing. OEM Owner Manual and I&T FO-20 Manual have the procedure. 99.98% of all non-starting issues are due to incorrect wiring.




FORD NAA, 600, & 800 ELECTRICAL w/TIMING:











CHARGING BATTERY & SPECIFIC GRAVITY:





FORD 600/800 ESSENTIAL OWNER/OPERATOR/PARTS/SERVICE MANUALS:






Tim Daley(MI)
 
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showcrop
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Location: Chester NH

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:06 am    Post subject: Re: 850 problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote



MeanGene, I don't care what they say, I think that you did real good, especially sneaking that tank out one side past the loader!! Illegtimi non carborundum!
 
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MeanGene1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: 850 problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

"I don't understand how and why". Boy howdy, guess you don't- and your reading comprehension seems challenged. Tractor starts instantly, runs great and all systems working fine- except the new leak. Pretty sure I've been running and working on these things longer than you have, and had some very good teachers, including my gramps who owned an IH dealership, trucking company and several farms. I don't care about original and correct on a work tractor, although I always save all the original parts when I do conversions in case I sell it to someone who wants to restore. 12V just plain works better- but always ruffles the feathers of old school purists. I even have a 24V, one wire alternator on my Case 680E- works great. I now have a sediment bulb with petcock that is very accessible even with the loader, and got rid of that PITA screwdriver type in the center of the tank, after replacing the original with an new one that leaked just as bad. Now I will probably never have to clean the bowl on the carb, but I also didn't have to replumb to eliminate it, and an extra bowl will hurt nothing except a purist's opinion- and I don't need your approval. I don't care lol. Purists also cry when we would remove a blown up pony motor on a Cat and install an electric starter- too bad. I also build race engines and race cars, sometimes wiring from scratch with many more systems than these rudimentary old tractors, and sometimes very simple total loss roundy-rounder systems with just a starter and a magneto. One MSD race ignition system I have draws 35 amps at idle and takes a little finesse to wire, and includes start delay, multiple RPM limiters, high rpm retard etc. I also rebuild and sell Sun distributor testers, and have the adapters to do electronic distributors on them, as well as dinosaur stuff. Even have the adapter to do Flathead Fords. I probably have at least a hundred truck and tractor manuals, including everything you boorishly thought you had to show me. Newer technology can be added to these old dinosaurs to make them start and run better and still remain pretty simple- if you don't know how or have the imagination to do this, I can't help you- but don't care to hear your self-righteous opinions/ rants. I could always put EFI with a crank trigger coil-on-plug ignition on it- the purists might have heart attacks- but it sure would run sweet. Spare me any more "witty" put-downs please- later for you
 
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Steve Brussell
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: 850 problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Play nice now, boys!
 
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MeanGene1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: 850 problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yep, started as a light-hearted jeez, what now deal, was jazzed because it was starting and running sooo good, no more fuel leak, bucket hooked back up etc. Sure wasn't looking for a know-it-all-as-long-as-it's-stock-and-original, down the nose so I look as stoopid as possible lecture. Some folks never heard of if you don't start any, there won't be any. Could be worse, I am a moderator on an antique motorcycle forum, and the old-timers can be severely militant- just start an oil thread. Gotta run straight 50 weight 'cause the book from 1940 says so lol... and if it leaks too much, 60 wt
 
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TractorTucker
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:35 pm    Post subject: Re: 850 problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The wiring on these old tractors isn't that complicated. When I first got my 2n, in order to make it run I used jumper cables, vise grips, and some 10 gauge wire and guess what, it started and ran without the oem wiring harness.
 
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michford
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Posts: 720
Location: Michigan

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:14 pm    Post subject: Re: 850 problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

MeanGene1, I didn't mean to come off as lecturing you about the neutral safety switch. I personally know someone that was run over by a tractor so I'm a little quick to voice concern when reading about a bypassed switch.
Like showcrop I am impressed at how you were able to swap out your gas tank without full hood removal. I have an idea what a Wagner loader looks like and that must have been fun to do.
 
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MeanGene1
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:50 am    Post subject: Re: 850 problems Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Nah, wasn't you lol. I will say that after spending many years starting early "pony motor" CATs, where you are standing on the track to start it, I am very disciplined about double checking that the trans is in neutral. Actually, I am working on a way to work in a clutch pedal switch, but having it not show- maybe could hide it under the floorboard. One could easily use one of those old lever-type stoplight switches, but wouldn't look too good. Using that imagination thing, one could even rob one of those annoying seat switches from a riding mower that kills the engine if you stand up into a starting circuit- but again, the "purists" heads would explode lol
Getting the tank in there was interesting, but doable, and with the help of a couple old towels, without a scratch. Now I am glad I haven't put the hood side back on, as I now need to fix the steering leak, the dash is already loose and I can get in through the side
 
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