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861 Diesel Blow By


 
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EEK
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:42 pm    Post subject: 861 Diesel Blow By Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Looked through old posts and have a question about crankcase pressure. Keep in mind I am not a motor head or a diesel guy, just a dude who tries getting things done.
I have an 861 Diesel and runs great, I haven't noticed any problems.
I ran out of fuel cleaning snow the other day.
After that I couldn't get it to fire, it would just crank. I then realized how bad it is to run a diesel empty!!
Trying to get it to fire after refueling, I loosening the fuel lines from injectors, checked for fuel at filter, messed with oil stick, ended up doing to worst thing and gave a quick shot of ether to finally fire it up.
Then it ran good again, and went out a day or two later and after letting it warm up, I noticed oil coming out of the oil stick tube. I have not noticed this before. I did have a few issues a couple months ago where the tractor was a little harder to start from cold, but I definitely think I would have noticed the overpressure with the oil pouring out of the oil stick tube, as didn't take long to notice and I didn't see any old oil puddles where I park it.
I haven't really noticed if there is more/less smoke, but the stack has a decent amount of white smoke is all.
I checked all the fuel lines and the oil stick cap and did find that I had loosened the tube that goes into the fuel injection seal as the line coupler did not break loose. I tried correcting that issue and but did not work.
If I let the tractor sit for 20 minutes, then start, it fires up and it takes about 15-20 minutes before the oil starts pouring out. I don't notice any power loss etc.

I don't really know anyone else who uses these old tractors and just wanted to ask knowledgable people a couple questions.
All signs point to rings, does this make sense with what I've got?
Would an In-Frame Rebuild Kit (Sleeves, pistons, rings, pins, retainers) be all a guy would need to try to repair this?

I have a few things I am going to really need to use this tractor for late spring/early summer so I don't have much of a choice and need to try to get something figured out. I have a couple weeks off next month and just need to get a game plan together and parts so I am ready.
It is a good running tractor, and has plenty of character, but I really like it.
Any help is appreciated.
I will try to give everything a good cleaning when I do the job, right now I am still covering everything in oil.
Thank you all.
Haven't been able to post pics or clips, blocking post.
 
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Ultradog MN
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:34 am    Post subject: Re: 861 Diesel Blow By Reply to specific post Reply with quote

EEK,
Welcome to the board.
What is the oil level on the dip stick
reading. My first thought is that your
injector pump is leaking fuel into the
crank case causing it to be over full.
If that is the case it's probably umbrella
seals on your pump and has nothing to do
with it runnung out of fuel.
Check the oil level and post back.
 
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EEK
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: 861 Diesel Blow By Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Ultradog MN wrote:
(quoted from post at 05:34:07 03/04/21) EEK,
Welcome to the board.
What is the oil level on the dip stick
reading. My first thought is that your
injector pump is leaking fuel into the
crank case causing it to be over full.
If that is the case it's probably umbrella
seals on your pump and has nothing to do
with it runnung out of fuel.
Check the oil level and post back.


You are good! I didn't even think of that, because every time I looked it up everyone talks about blow by.
Yes, dipstick is half full.
This forum deal is the smartest thing I've ever done!!!! I've always read, just never joined.

You have no idea how happy I am. Thank you, I appreciate it more than you can know as no one that I know can really help.

So anyway, I had some old lawn mowers in the past that would leak fuel into the crank, but I have never messed with diesel (guess it is intimidating being "diesel").
So I will try to look up "umbrella seals" and learn me something.
 
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showcrop
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:23 am    Post subject: Re: 861 Diesel Blow By Reply to specific post Reply with quote



My first thought was the same as UD posted. when checking the oil level you want to be mainly looking for how thick it is. fuel leaking in will really thin it out. If you had that much blowby it wouldn't even start. For future reference it takes about two days to bleed one of those. I ran mine out of fuel while raking hay 15 years ago. I didn't even try to bleed it. I just went and got a different tractor.
 
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EEK
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:29 am    Post subject: Re: 861 Diesel Blow By Reply to specific post Reply with quote


It is thin. It is very realistic.
The reason I joined this forum this time is because I had a pit in my stomach that didn't feel right.
I actually feel right that this is the most realistic thing I've heard and it makes sense. It just didn't make sense in my head before.

If you guys would have seen it, you would probably have just smacked me for even asking.
 
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showcrop
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: 861 Diesel Blow By Reply to specific post Reply with quote

EEK wrote:
(quoted from post at 07:29:20 03/04/21)
It is thin. It is very realistic.
The reason I joined this forum this time is because I had a pit in my stomach that didn't feel right.
I actually feel right that this is the most realistic thing I've heard and it makes sense. It just didn't make sense in my head before.

If you guys would have seen it, you would probably have just smacked me for even asking.



Well, remember the old adage "the only stupid question is the one that is not asked". Post back with how you do with it.
 
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EEK
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: 861 Diesel Blow By Reply to specific post Reply with quote


This might be another question that shouldn't be asked, but can you changed the seals without pulling the entire unit off and apart?

I only ask because I know that the pumps are workable but still intricate and I prefer to only mess with it as far as necessary. If it has to be completely ripped apart then that is fine, but if a guy can just change out the seals without jeopardizing the pump clearances, settings, etc. that sounds like a better plan to me. It is a good old tractor, but as most people that are in their late 60s, it justifiably has a few leaks here and there. Until things slow down for me, I'm ok with it just being a good runner and would love to do an in depth rebuild one day, but that would be realistically in about two years as I have a pretty busy couple years ahead.
Honestly I have had the tractor for 1 year and also have tried working it a little harder than I believe it had been in the past and I am also testing out durability before I invest a ton of money. I have no problem turning this old girl into a $15,000 rock solid, working rig as I prefer this beast to a modern tractor (just weird I guess).
 
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EEK
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:33 am    Post subject: Re: 861 Diesel Blow By Reply to specific post Reply with quote


I found some literature from OregonFuelInjection. I might have answered my own question.

oregonfuelinjection.com/content/uploads/2016/08/stanadyne-db2-db4-pump-removal-and-installation.pdf

Never messed with an injection pump before. Not sure if it is wise to pull off without some knowledge. Things could possibly go south real fast if a guy inadvertently missed something and didn't know it.
I think I better evaluate my options, just not a lot of places around here a guy can get old tractor service. Might take me some research.
 
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showcrop
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: 861 Diesel Blow By Reply to specific post Reply with quote

EEK wrote:
(quoted from post at 09:33:14 03/04/21)
I found some literature from OregonFuelInjection. I might have answered my own question.

oregonfuelinjection.com/content/uploads/2016/08/stanadyne-db2-db4-pump-removal-and-installation.pdf

Never messed with an injection pump before. Not sure if it is wise to pull off without some knowledge. Things could possibly go south real fast if a guy inadvertently missed something and didn't know it.
I think I better evaluate my options, just not a lot of places around here a guy can get old tractor service. Might take me some research.



I wouldn't go into the pump without good reason. My 971 D was starting hard when cold or hot to the point that during hay season I carried a gal of water with me to pour on the pump to cool it. I sent it out to someone that I found out about here on YT and it came back no better than I sent it out. Three years later I took it to a local shop where I paid a lot more, but the tractor runs much better. I have minor leaks at the filter and where one of the lines comes off the pump but I will deal with them at some point.
 
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EEK
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 861 Diesel Blow By Reply to specific post Reply with quote

showcrop wrote:
(quoted from post at 10:36:30 03/04/21)
EEK wrote:
(quoted from post at 09:33:14 03/04/21)
I found some literature from OregonFuelInjection. I might have answered my own question.

oregonfuelinjection.com/content/uploads/2016/08/stanadyne-db2-db4-pump-removal-and-installation.pdf

Never messed with an injection pump before. Not sure if it is wise to pull off without some knowledge. Things could possibly go south real fast if a guy inadvertently missed something and didn't know it.
I think I better evaluate my options, just not a lot of places around here a guy can get old tractor service. Might take me some research.



I wouldn't go into the pump without good reason. My 971 D was starting hard when cold or hot to the point that during hay season I carried a gal of water with me to pour on the pump to cool it. I sent it out to someone that I found out about here on YT and it came back no better than I sent it out. Three years later I took it to a local shop where I paid a lot more, but the tractor runs much better. I have minor leaks at the filter and where one of the lines comes off the pump but I will deal with them at some point.


So I found a Ford/New Holland dealer service shop that is a few hours away. They seem like they are really easy to talk to etc about my old tractor as well, seem really knowledgeable and not just salesman trying to get me to upgrade.
Everything is still looking like the Umbrella Seals and normally I would just dive in and learn as I go, however with this being the heartbeat of the tractor I am going to pull off the pump and drop it off next week and let them swap seals. I am also going to bring in my tilt cylinders and have them replace the seals, leaked when I bought the tractor.
I will be gone for a few weeks and they said they should have it all done when I get back so I will update in about a month with the verdict.
I appreciate all the help guys. Also this helped pushed me to contact a dealer and try to start a relationship that I truly need. I would like to use them as a resource, not a crutch but to help support me on the more technical end at least and my tractor will be a lot more solid in the end. I do feel a lot better now that I might not accidentally miss something that I didnt know was important. Professionals are there for a reason thats why theres service shops!
 
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showcrop
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:38 am    Post subject: Re: 861 Diesel Blow By Reply to specific post Reply with quote

EEK wrote:
(quoted from post at 21:46:54 03/05/21)
showcrop wrote:
(quoted from post at 10:36:30 03/04/21)
EEK wrote:
(quoted from post at 09:33:14 03/04/21)
I found some literature from OregonFuelInjection. I might have answered my own question.

oregonfuelinjection.com/content/uploads/2016/08/stanadyne-db2-db4-pump-removal-and-installation.pdf

Never messed with an injection pump before. Not sure if it is wise to pull off without some knowledge. Things could possibly go south real fast if a guy inadvertently missed something and didn't know it.
I think I better evaluate my options, just not a lot of places around here a guy can get old tractor service. Might take me some research.



I wouldn't go into the pump without good reason. My 971 D was starting hard when cold or hot to the point that during hay season I carried a gal of water with me to pour on the pump to cool it. I sent it out to someone that I found out about here on YT and it came back no better than I sent it out. Three years later I took it to a local shop where I paid a lot more, but the tractor runs much better. I have minor leaks at the filter and where one of the lines comes off the pump but I will deal with them at some point.


So I found a Ford/New Holland dealer service shop that is a few hours away. They seem like they are really easy to talk to etc about my old tractor as well, seem really knowledgeable and not just salesman trying to get me to upgrade.
Everything is still looking like the Umbrella Seals and normally I would just dive in and learn as I go, however with this being the heartbeat of the tractor I am going to pull off the pump and drop it off next week and let them swap seals. I am also going to bring in my tilt cylinders and have them replace the seals, leaked when I bought the tractor.
I will be gone for a few weeks and they said they should have it all done when I get back so I will update in about a month with the verdict.
I appreciate all the help guys. Also this helped pushed me to contact a dealer and try to start a relationship that I truly need. I would like to use them as a resource, not a crutch but to help support me on the more technical end at least and my tractor will be a lot more solid in the end. I do feel a lot better now that I might not accidentally miss something that I didnt know was important. Professionals are there for a reason thats why theres service shops!


Good to see you appearing to be on track. I can't agree with your assessment of a dealer relationship however, because my experience has not been good with dealers. It seems that most of the really good technicians will get basic experience at a dealer, and then strike out on their own, either as a mobile service provider or as a repair shop. Though they may talk a good story, they are rarely interested in supporting the old machines, unless there appears to be a potential for some good sales of modern ones. I suggest that you keep your eyes open for an independent.
 
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EEK
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: 861 Diesel Blow By Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Good to see you appearing to be on track. I can't agree with your assessment of a dealer relationship however, because my experience has not been good with dealers. It seems that most of the really good technicians will get basic experience at a dealer, and then strike out on their own, either as a mobile service provider or as a repair shop. Though they may talk a good story, they are rarely interested in supporting the old machines, unless there appears to be a potential for some good sales of modern ones. I suggest that you keep your eyes open for an independent.[/quote]

I always get nervous about dealers with anything. The hard part around my area is you never find a mechanic or service shop for anything that is awesome. No handyman or even contractors. Everyone here is so it yourself backyard mechanics etc. the good mechanics are working for private fleets etc. With the backyard mechanics its people like myself with no formal knowledge just people who grew up tinkering and so they either do it on the side or its a Guber style Mayberry shop that you would use if you have zero knowledge or emergency, or worst case and traveling through.
Kind of have my hands tied unless I call some favors from some buddies (private diesel mechanics) but they only work on heavy equipment and trucks, no tractors at all. Tons of tractors in the area but like most the farmers/ranchers either have new and service them at dealer or do it themselves. Less inclined have a graveyard and upgrade when it is beyond them.
Not saying there isnt people who know, but not easy to find a trustworthy individual.
Not enough people willing to pay to older tractors worked on, tough for any trade or service here to survive. Not much money in the area and people are capable or at least think they are by doing things themselves. Different environment, I love it but if you werent raised around it, it is hard to understand.
 
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derwen1959
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: 861 Diesel Blow By Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Could the cylinders be glazed up from no heavy
work . What oil are you using?
It's my opinion that older tractors run better on
single grade oil
Also I try to avoid main dealers
 
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EEK
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: 861 Diesel Blow By Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-derwen1959 wrote:
(quoted from post at 09:46:56 03/06/21) Could the cylinders be glazed up from no heavy
work . What oil are you using?
It's my opinion that older tractors run better on
single grade oil
Also I try to avoid main dealers


I have just been using 46. When I bought it the guy gave me some seal kits for it. He used to pick round bales. Not sure but Im thinking that he drove the round bales across field to feed and overloaded the loader as his bales were about 1200lbs. I just assumed with bouncing that may have caused the seal issue on the tilt. Other two cylinders are good though.
Constantly weeping, whether running or parked.
 
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EEK
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 861 Diesel Blow By Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Sorry been a bit on this. After getting home had some medical issues.
Anyway, finally got the injection pump put back in and running. Seems to be running better than ever now. Internal leak appears to be fixed. Had a heck of a time as everything I touched leaked so was a process to get it all put together and revamped.
Here is the rundown:
1. Dealer is New Holland/Ford shop. Has about 10 new units and about an acre of used. They work out of an old shop. Feels more like a backyard deal than a legit dealer, which wasnt bad.
2. They said they messed up and sent the pump to a shop in Iowa for a rebuild and then realized it wasnt supposed to be sent out. Gave me an option, I told them only change whats needed, so they did and sent back the parts they changed. Gave it to me for their cost.
3. Cylinders they told me looked like they had already been done and were becoming undersized, said I could either try for rebuild without warranty or have new cylinders made (obsolete). I had them do the rebuild.
4. Some of the things the did I see why the have to recommend other things drive me crazy. I was hoping they could help with my backhoe attachment cylinders but now I know what they will say.

Anyway, moved some gravel and ripped up the driveway etc testing out. Seems to be working quite well so far.
I appreciate the help from all on this.
Also on the last post, I realized you were probably asking about motor oil not hyd fluid. If so, I put 15w40 in it. I have went back and forth on this but seems like the majority of people around my area run it.

 
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