Yesterday's Tractor Co.
Shop Now View Cart
   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 9N,2N,8N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   Traditional YT Forum ViewClassic View   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile    Log inLog in 

Out of spec sleeve kit D17


 
Post new topic    
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Beak
Regular


Joined: 19 Mar 2021
Posts: 26


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:10 pm    Post subject: Out of spec sleeve kit D17 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I bought an Agco sleeve kit PN 79015760for my D17 series IV and when checking the clearances on the pistons to sleeves I found that they didnt match the Allis service manual. Manual said sleeves to be 4.000-4.001 and I had one that was at 4.001 but the other three were 4.0022, 4.0025 and 4.0033. The pistons are supposed to be 3.998 on the large dia. and 3.989 on the small. I got 3.997 on all of my large diameters and 3.984-3.985 on the small diameter. The book says .002-.003 clearance on the bottom of the skirt and I would have .0063 on the worst one. I then checked the end gap on a couple compression rings. Book says .009-.017 and I got .024. The place I bought it from says run it. It wont matter, but Im thinking no. The one spec that was was listed with the kit was end gaps on rings and it said .017 minimum but didnt give a max. They are saying that maybe the manufactures have changed materials or something and that I may not be able to go by the book specs. Any opinions or experiances with kits being out of specs. Im thinking about taking it back but then I will have to find another high compression kit and it wasnt that easy the first time.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Jim.ME
Tractor Guru


Joined: 02 Mar 2018
Posts: 4519


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Out of spec sleeve kit D17 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

CVPost-Beak wrote:
(quoted from post at 18:10:23 06/07/21) I bought an Agco sleeve kit PN 79015760for my D17 series IV and when checking the clearances on the pistons to sleeves I found that they didnt match the Allis service manual. Manual said sleeves to be 4.000-4.001 and I had one that was at 4.001 but the other three were 4.0022, 4.0025 and 4.0033. The pistons are supposed to be 3.998 on the large dia. and 3.989 on the small. I got 3.997 on all of my large diameters and 3.984-3.985 on the small diameter. The book says .002-.003 clearance on the bottom of the skirt and I would have .0063 on the worst one. I then checked the end gap on a couple compression rings. Book says .009-.017 and I got .024. The place I bought it from says run it. It wont matter, but Im thinking no. The one spec that was was listed with the kit was end gaps on rings and it said .017 minimum but didnt give a max. They are saying that maybe the manufactures have changed materials or something and that I may not be able to go by the book specs. Any opinions or experiances with kits being out of specs. Im thinking about taking it back but then I will have to find another high compression kit and it wasnt that easy the first time.


Not saying one way or the other on the kit, but a couple things to consider related to some of your measurements. Have you had your micrometers and standards calibrated and certified by a place that does that and issues paperwork of the results, not just you checking your mic with your standards? Your feel and mine using the same mic on the same part can be easily be a thousandths or two different. Temperature can affect things to.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Beak
Regular


Joined: 19 Mar 2021
Posts: 26


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Out of spec sleeve kit D17 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I checked my mic with the standard. The fact that I used the same mic for the pistons as I did for the sleeves would take care of that as
far as clearance. I thought about that too. Im not a professional machinist but have been using these tools for around 40 years. Thinking
that it might be a mistake on my part led me to check the ring end gaps. Its pretty hard to screw that up. lol Ive never had an engine
part be out of spec before, in fact it was tempted to skip all that and just slap it together. I thought they seemed looser than normal when
I was checking with a feeler gauge. I stopped at a .005 feeler and started measuring so I suppose I could have kept going. By the looks of
the measurements I could have pulled a 6 pretty easy. I dont know what to do. They said they would take the kit back.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
funky_g00
Regular


Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 435


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Out of spec sleeve kit D17 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

If your measurements have been checked, rechecked, and checked again to rule out user/reader error, I would lean towards replacing the kit, more or less for OCD reasons only. In all actuality that kit would probably be fine. I know its comparing apple to oranges but spark plugs and points gap specs allows for a greater deviation from ideal than what you are off. I guess the big question to ask is how much/hard is this tractor going to get used. Worst case scenario is that based on your measurements the engine may develop at worst a piston slap or at minimum develop blow-by/smoke sooner than it should. Both of which may only be noticeable at start up or after a hard days work. While not ideal the engine will run for years with either condition. Neither of which matter for a trailer queen or a light use oversized lawn mower. One last thing to consider is the availability/quality control of low turn over parts for 50+ year old tractors. There is no guarantee the second kit will be 100% within spec either. Just my .02
 
Back to top
View user's profile
teddy52food
Tractor Guru


Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 10295


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: Out of spec sleeve kit D17 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Are they a full round or slipper skirt piston? Makes a difference on how they expand when hot. Full round needs more clearance. With your measurements It should be ready to put to work.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Beak
Regular


Joined: 19 Mar 2021
Posts: 26


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: Out of spec sleeve kit D17 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Unfortunately I already returned it and its a 4 hour round trip. Now Im looking for sleeves and pistons but not having much luck.
The flat tops are sold out wherever I have checked so far. And anything in the 8-8.25/1 range is not available at least where Im looking. Im kind of stuck. Im not going to put it together with the low compression stuff. Ive had nothing but trouble with parts since I started this mess. It all started with a wrist pin binding up making the engine knock. The piston was starting a really small crack so Im glad I tore it down but this parts problems is crazy. Anyone have some new flat tops they want to sell? D17 series 4
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Aaron SEIA
Tractor Expert


Joined: 16 Dec 2003
Posts: 2541
Location: SE Iowa

Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: Out of spec sleeve kit D17 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I'd have probably ran it, but then I've never checked new parts to be sure they are in spec. I'd check with DJS Tractor Parts or OK Tractor to see what they can get. The 226 should have Power Crater pistons, not flat tops.
AaronSEIA
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Beak
Regular


Joined: 19 Mar 2021
Posts: 26


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: Out of spec sleeve kit D17 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

They were full round pistons. I talked to the guy that runs the engine machine shop in the locale town and he thought it would run alright
but it would probably rattle especially on start up. So I took them back. It would have been nice if there was information with the kit
mentioning changes from manufacturers specifications. I dont have experience enough to make calls like that on my own. Even a change in
alloy can effect expansion rates. They dont put the info in the kit because then they would have to answer to them. I ended up ordering WD
pistons and sleeves. Not sure what thats going to get me but I guess if it doesnt look like they will work I will send them back. Im
wondering if there will be a problem with valve clearance, or possibly too high of compression. I have see where several others on the forum
have used them and were happy with them. I always use premium gas in the tractor anyway. Any insight into the use of WD pistons and sleeves
would be greatly appreciated.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
funky_g00
Regular


Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 435


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Out of spec sleeve kit D17 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Using WD pistons and sleeves will work, but I believe the WD pistons are slightly shorter than D17 pistons. While it may be a small difference it will result in a loss of horsepower. How much though, I have no idea.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Aaron SEIA
Tractor Expert


Joined: 16 Dec 2003
Posts: 2541
Location: SE Iowa

Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Out of spec sleeve kit D17 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I'm not sure what a piston designed for a 4" stroke will do for compression on a 4.5" stroke.
AaronSEIA
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Beak
Regular


Joined: 19 Mar 2021
Posts: 26


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:33 am    Post subject: Re: Out of spec sleeve kit D17 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

They were full round pistons. I talked to the guy that runs the engine machine shop in the locale town and he thought it would run alright
but it would probably rattle especially on start up. So I took them back. It would have been nice if there was information with the kit
mentioning changes from manufacturers specifications. I dont have experience enough to make calls like that on my own. Even a change in
alloy can effect expansion rates. They dont put the info in the kit because then they would have to answer to them. I ended up ordering WD
pistons and sleeves. Not sure what thats going to get me but I guess if it doesnt look like they will work I will send them back. Im
wondering if there will be a problem with valve clearance, or possibly too high of compression. I have see where several others on the forum
have used them and were happy with them. I always use premium gas in the tractor anyway. Any insight into the use of WD pistons and sleeves
would be greatly appreciated.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Beak
Regular


Joined: 19 Mar 2021
Posts: 26


Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:40 am    Post subject: Re: Out of spec sleeve kit D17 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I thought that people were using the WD pistons to get more compression. I might have misunderstood. I'll check it out as soon as they get here and so maybe I will be sending them back.
 
Back to top
View user's profile
Aaron SEIA
Tractor Expert


Joined: 16 Dec 2003
Posts: 2541
Location: SE Iowa

Report to Moderator

PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:36 am    Post subject: Re: Out of spec sleeve kit D17 Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I would imagine you'd get more. How much more and would the engine be user friendly is rhw question. I'd just toss the D17 pistons in from the kit and run it.
AaronSEIA
 
Back to top
View user's profile
:   
Post new topic    Yesterday's Tractors Forum Index -> Allis Chalmers All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  

TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

YT Home  |  Forums

Modern View Forum powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters