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John in LA


 
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jd b puller
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:57 pm    Post subject: John in LA Reply to specific post Reply with quote

John, you wrote;
Re: What's the big deal.... getting a CDL in reply to Weldin man, 10-19-2007 17:33:10

"NO if it weighs over 10,000 lbs and you cross a state line you need a DOT # but only if you make money from the move."

Call me stupid, but please define "make money".

Thanks
 
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john_Bud
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: John in LA Reply to specific post Reply with quote

jd b puller wrote:
(quoted from post at 19:57:38 10/22/07) John, you wrote;
Re: What's the big deal.... getting a CDL in reply to Weldin man, 10-19-2007 17:33:10

"NO if it weighs over 10,000 lbs and you cross a state line you need a DOT # but only if you make money from the move."

Call me stupid, but please define "make money".

Thanks



I'm not from "LA", but around here the man with the blue suit told me if it has anything to do with money, or money making, you better have the USDOT# and be in compliance. Hauling a drag race car to a race that has $20 prizes, tractor pulls, crossing state lines with a 1 ton and getting some seed, fertilizer or similar supplies for the farm. It's the weight of the truck + trailer. Weight may be actual weight, registered weight or MFG sticker weight capacity. It's not just are you getting paid to haul a load --> that would be too simple!

I don't agree with that definition, but it's what they are using. They also don't care if the IRS has declared your activities as a "Hobby". Any compensation will trip some blue suit's ticket writing pen into high gear.


The massive confusion stems from the many conflicting laws, interpretations and enforcement. I spent a lot of time with the DMV, State Patrol and the internet researching this topic. I have an opinion from the state patrol and documents showing the current laws and the farm exclusions for my state (WI). The DVM however told me exactly the opposite! Had I not done the background work there would be some 3" tall lettering on the side of the truck!

jb
 
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john in la
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:37 am    Post subject: Re: John in LA Reply to specific post Reply with quote

There are 2 ways of making money and BOTH require a DOT #.

The first is the way most of of think about truckers making money. Hauling other peoples stuff for a fee. This is called a For Hire Carrier and he needs things over and beyond what most guys on this site need. Such as a ICC #; some call it a MC # because it starts with MC. This is why I tell guys to not haul anything for anybody even as a favor. If you get caught you will fall under For Hire rules.

The second is what most guys on this site fall under. They are called Private Carriers. This carrier can only haul stuff he ownes. This could be stuff brought into his plant to make a product out of or hay hauled to a farm to feed cows. It could also be the finished product hauled out or the cows going to the sale barn.

While I do not agree with it the rules apply to and money changing hands. Even if the IRS thinks it is a hobby. So yes that tractor you haul to a show is considered making money because you have a chance to win $20 or even a ribbon. The guy hauling hay into his house may not be making money from the move but he will one day down the road when he sells the cows.

So making money is a direct or indirect compensation. If anyone gives you anything; a ribbon; a dollar; OR you have a chance of getting such; and you were required to use your truck that weighs over 10,000 lbs some where along the line (not just the day of compensation) you fall under DOT rules and need a DOT # and all that implies.
 
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jd b puller
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:36 am    Post subject: Re: John in LA Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Lemme see if I understand this...

If you sell something for $100, did you "make money"? Well, if you bought it for $80 I guess you did. What if you bought it for $120?

Example -
- You live in Detroit.
- You are going to haul a tractor from Flint, MI to St. Louis, MO.
- It's 50 miles from Detroit to FLint, then 540 to St. Louis. Then you deadhead back to Detroit another 527 miles.
- You charged the guy $450
- How much money did you "make". When I fill out my income taxes at the end of the year aren't I going to put down for this trip of 1122 miles, that the standard deduction for mileage is $0.41 (or whatever number that is) comes out to $0.41 X 1122 = $460. So I lost $10. So do these rules apply?

- Example 2 - I'm hauling my stuff, from California to Maine. I'm far from home? Am I legal as Joe Schmo?

Thanks,
 
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john_Bud
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: John in LA Reply to specific post Reply with quote

JD,

IN your example 1, you are compensated, even if it cost you more than the compensation. That only means you are a whizz poor business person, it does not change the fact you were compensated.


In example #2, as long as you are under 26,000# you should be legal. You can even buy a tractor and haul it from NOothern Maine to Southern Flakeafornia as long as it's for non-business use. Something like using it to make a food plot on your hunting land is OK, as long as you don't charge someone for hunting. Moving your household is the same deal. Hauling a tractor that you bought off e-scam is ok, as long as it's not going to be used on the farm. You bought it so you can pull a hay wagon for the 4-H club parade - wink - .

jb
 
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jd b puller
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: John in LA Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Thanks John. It's obvious that lawmakers drive RV's, not pickup trucks. Gotta love those Toyota commercials where they brag about hauling 10000# trailers.
 
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Welding man
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: John in LA Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I have a truck and trailer that I use for nothing but to take my tractors to and from tractor pulls.According to FMCSA Regulation 390.3(F)(3). You are exempt from these rules for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise".The tractor clubs I pull do not give prize money. Our pulling season is over for the year, but next year I will haul my tractors as I have in the past, and if the man in the blue suit writes me a ticket we will let the judge make his decision on the law. If I loose,i'll pay the fine then we will know once and for all.
 
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Bryce
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:55 pm    Post subject: Re: John in LA Reply to specific post Reply with quote

AMEN.If the IRS tells me I cannot write it off because its a hobby and the man in blue says I am making money,then .....Wait that sounds exactly like our government.Welding man and john bud,I am with you guys on this one.
 
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john in la
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: John in LA Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I am just the messanger boy. Does not mean I agree with the rules.
If you want to find the root of the problem look at that guy hauling a tractor down the road to do some dirt work for a fee; but when he gets stopped on the way there he has some sob story about how he is headed to the show or to his vacation property to do some work.
You know that guy that is going to the 4-H club parade with a tractor and a brush cutter.--wink--
 
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john_Bud
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: John in LA Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Actually, there is a category for farm income on the tax forms that is "hire out work". The WI farm exclusion may allow for transport of your tractor to another person's farm to till the ground or do other farm-ish activities.


Hadn't thought about it before May have to look into it.

jb
 
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john in la
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: John in LA Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I have been bouncing this around so I could say it in such a way that you would have no question in your mind what category you fit in; so lets try this.............

Example 1
If the name listed on the truck and trailer registration is different from the name of the person/company listed on the BOL (Bill of Lading) that owns the load you are a For Hire Carrier. Who cares if you made money or not.
Before you ask.... What if I do not have a BOL. All I can say to that is you better have a BOL if you cross a state line with the load.

Example 2
If the owner of the truck and trailer also owns the load you are a Private Carrier and need to follow all DOT rules UNLESS you have a exemption.
 
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davediehl@hotmail.com
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: John in LA Reply to specific post Reply with quote

The info in class, and brochure I scanned several weeks back, does not have the "money" exemption when crossing state lines. If you cross state lines, and your over 10,001, you will be required to have the DOT number. I posted those in the forum weeks ago.
 
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john in la
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:48 pm    Post subject: Re: John in LA Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Dave your brochure may not use the word "Money" as a exemption but I think if we read the rules we could use that term to describe the need for a DOT #. The brochure most likely uses "Commerce" or "Commercial" instead of money.

Not all trucks that weigh over 10,000 lbs and cross a state line need a DOT #; but all trucks that fit in that class and make money do need a #.

We could take this one more step by looking at some of the past court rulings.
A guy owns a class 8 peterbilt. He has his own bobtail insurance in his name. He is bobtailing from his terminal where he dropped the company trailer to his house. On the way he gets stopped and asked for a log book. It is not up to date and he is over hours so he gets a ticket.
When the guy goes to court the ticket is thrown out because even though he was in a class 8 truck he is not considered to be working at that time and does not need a log book no more than a guy driving a car down the road. The reason is because he is considered to be driving his personal vehicle at that time. It is now up to the court to prove he was actually at work.
 
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Walter Buller
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: John in LA Reply to specific post Reply with quote

As a matter of information, the IRS has lost 8 out of it's last 9 cases in Federal District Court to defendents whose only defense was that they couldn't find any law in the IR Code, Title 26 USC, that required them to file a return. At their trials neither the IRS nor the Dept. of Justice attorney's were able to find such a law either. Their respective juries had no logical recourse but to return verdicts of not guilty. Interestingly, the one conviction they managed to get was only for a misdemeanor. One of their loses was to one of their own former agents who worked for ten years in their highest division, the CID or Criminal Investigation Division. He quit in disgust when he couldn't find such a law either. His name is Joe Banister. He has his own website: www.freedomabovefortune.com. Fascinating info there.
 
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Walter Buller
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: John in LA Reply to specific post Reply with quote

As a matter of information, the IRS has lost 8 out of it's last 9 cases in Federal District Court to defendents whose only defense was that they couldn't find any law in the IR Code, Title 26 USC, that required them to file a return. At their trials neither the IRS nor the Dept. of Justice attorney's were able to find such a law either. Their respective juries had no logical recourse but to return verdicts of not guilty. Interestingly, the one conviction they managed to get was only for a misdemeanor. One of their loses was to one of their own former agents who worked for ten years in their highest division, the CID or Criminal Investigation Division. He quit in disgust when he couldn't find such a law either. His name is Joe Banister. He has his own website: www.freedomabovefortune.com. Fascinating info there.
 
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