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3020 starting issue


 
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Wayne3020
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:03 pm    Post subject: 3020 starting issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I have a 1964 3020 diesel that I went to start and the battery was dead. Charged and tried to start and the starter kept turning over even when I turned off the key. Do you think it is in the key switch sticking or is it in the starter? Never had this problem before but have had more of a problem with the batteries being down when going to start this winter. Probably due for a new battery as one is older than the other. Thanks to all for your help.
 
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gtski
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 3020 starting issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Solenoid stuck from arcing with low battery???
 
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Tom 43
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 3020 starting issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

That is one of the problems with the 24 volt system when the batteries begin to weaken. In an inductive circuit such as a starter, low voltage that can be caused by corroded battery cables as well as weak batteries. If the voltage is really low, usually the 24 VOLT solenoid will just click and the tractor won"t crank. However, a condition where one battery is good and the other weak, still retains a lot of power. The starter draws excessive current(because of lack of counter emf due to the slow turning starter). This excess current draw can weld the solenoid contacts together allowing the starter to keep cranking.

Some of those 24 VOLT solenoids are serviceable and both the terminals and solenoid disk can be removed and smoothed and brightened with a file or emery wheel.

It is a good idea to replace the batteries as a pair as it is a quirk of the 24 volt system that a new and old battery will not charge evenly. I recommend the correct Deere batteries for the 24 volt system.
 
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buickanddeere
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: 3020 starting issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Use matched batteries.
Get the starter cleaned and a new solenoid.
Use a switch in the "chassis" connection between the batteries. Open when the tractor isn't running.
Use a block heater.
 
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Tom 43
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 3020 starting issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Buick and Deere,
You are a man after my own heart. I love the phrase "chassis" connection.
 
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John T
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Solenoid sticking Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Wayne, what uou describe is not particular to ONLY the Deere 24/12 system, it can also happen in 12 volt tractors, here are my thoughts and suggestions:

DIRECT QUESTION ANSWER: While the start switch could be hanging, Id more suspect the solenoid is sticking closed versus a starter problem. When the starter is engaged and before its RPM builds up the current draw is high, and besides any starter issues, high current draw can burn and carbon the solenoids contactor surfaces

1) The first red flag is if you have unmatched batteries in a 24 volt series dual battery system. Its best if they are matched in type, brand, size and age.

2) If the voltage is low, due to either one weak battery or both are low (or a number of other problems such as loose burned corroded resistive terminals and connections,,,,,,,loose or bad cables,,,,,a burned carboned solenoid contactor) excess current draw can cause the contacts to stick SO THE STARTER RUNS ON EVEN IF SOLENOID POWER IS REMOVED......

3) Here are my suggestions:

a) Remove, clean and wire brush shiny, and reattach each and every battery cable and solenoid and starter cable connection (yep theres a few) and to frame ground connection (although thats NOT part of the starter current draw circuit its a good thing to do while youre servicing cables and connections)

b) Have the batteries, especially the older one, tested and load tested and check the electrolyte levels. If either is weak or bad REPLACE IT. Note, Id prefer if BOTH were matched as noted above

c) Insure BOTH batteries are fully charged

Give it a try and if the solenoid contactors are too badly burned pitted and carboned up that issue needs resolved

That help?? Post any questions and let us know

John T
 
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John T
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 3020 starting issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Glen, when you suggest he use a switch in the "chassis" (I call it the tractors frame) connection between the batteries.....

WERE YOU THINKING THE STARTER MAY BE DISCHARGING THE ONE BATTERY DUE TO COPPER BRUSH DUST AS I DISCUSSED BELOW. I missed your inputs on that one

Sorry I missed you in New York, maybe we will reunite at the next Expo

John T Your friend down here in the states
 
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LarrySTN
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: 3020 starting issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yes, when a solenoid welds it's contacts together causing the starter to run on, it is usually due to low voltage. As voltage drops, amperage increases. High amps weld contacts.
 
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buickanddeere
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 3020 starting issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I was thinking if the chassis to battery connection was opened while the tractor is at rest. The discharge path through the dirty starter would be interrupted.
Ideally a 2nd starter solenoid on the + cable so the starter is 100% isolated. Not going to try and explain that modification here.
Had grand plans to attend the 2012 GoG but Mrs B&D is due for some luxuries around the house. And I can't risk missing the moose hunt, so GoG became optional.
 
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larryanderson
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:55 am    Post subject: Re: 3020 starting issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Batteries and cables are the cause of most starting problems.I had exact same problem on a 3020 that had sat for a few years ,put in new batteries and cables and problem was solved.
 
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John T
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:46 am    Post subject: Re: 3020 starting issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Yep I suspected that was what you were intending. A second solenoid would do the trick but the system is already so complicated to so many here its best we dont go into that now lol

John T
 
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Tx Jim
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:52 am    Post subject: Re: 3020 starting issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

John T wrote:
(quoted from post at 07:46:20 02/12/12) Yep I suspected that was what you were intending. A second solenoid would do the trick but the system is already so complicated to so many here its best we dont go into that now lol

John T


AMEN I agree. I think it would just be another part to fail to complicate the 24V system more.
 
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ehgauss
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:59 am    Post subject: Re: 3020 starting issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

I've had the starter solenoid on my 3010 Wheel backhoe/loader hang up a few times, particularly when the batteries may be low. I just leave the clamp bolt on one of the terminals on the near side battery loose and before starting, press the terminal down and rotate it a little to assure good contact. If the solenoid does hang up, which is rare, I simply pry the terminal off the battery post (accompanied by some sparking and arcing), and the starter stops running and the solenoid drops out. Sort of a half a--ed approach, but it's better than burning out a starter.
 
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Tx Jim
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:42 am    Post subject: Re: 3020 starting issue Reply to specific post Reply with quote

ehgauss wrote:
(quoted from post at 08:59:40 02/12/12) I simply pry the terminal off the battery post (accompanied by some sparking and arcing), and the starter stops running and the solenoid drops out. Sort of a half a--ed approach, but it's better than burning out a starter.


Sparks & batteries are a NO-NO. What if the little spark ignites the battery gas and explodes with possible injury to you face maybe even blindness????????????
 
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