188d Sleeve Protrusion

[JAMH]

I have cleaned up the sleeves (narrow flange) from my old backhoe engine and placed them into the purchased block without the O-rings at the bottom. I clamped the sleeves down at 50 ft-lbs torque and measured the sleeve protrusion above the block deck and it is coming out to .001 - .002 inches. Is that enough protrusion or should I shave a little off the block deck to increase the protrusion a bit more?

In a previous post, there was a warning to be careful not to take too much off the block deck because the valve clearance in this engine is quite tight. My question is, how much can be taken off the block deck before there is a risk of valve contact with the pistons? Is there any risk if I take 1 or 2 thou off the block deck?

 

[mEl]

When we had this discussion before I made it clear that the advisable way to fix it would be to go to wide flange sleeves and recut the counterbores to assure of their squareness, you are working with a possible 50 -60 year block and sleeve settling was an issue with the narrow flange setup, Case seen the need to give the sleeve more support, Hence the block redesign. The proper way to measure is to clamp the sleeve down with a fixture to place it into a torqued down state. The sleeve lands may look good to the naked eye but be eroded and a very small section of the block may actually be holding the sleeve up, the top of the block can be cut a few thousand but the right way would be to have the upper counter bore done also. I think outside the box and would give the sleeves a bit more standout. My 530 someone before me had worked on and the sleeves are much higher than 1-2 thou and it works perfectly years after a head gasket replacement. If I were you I would never consider just a deck milling without truing up the counter bore.

 

[derwen1959]

Is it a good idea to refit old sleeves?
Why not fit new?

 

[mEl]

I spent my entire life ( i am retired and 76 and worked 52 years till i was 69) at the same Case dealer and grew up with those engines so I speak from a position of experience. I would not under any circumstances use old narrow flange sleeves if there was an option, which there is. It is just to much work in my mind to cut corners, in the first place the narrow flange sleeves had a history of cracking radially about 1/4 inch down as a result of lack of counter bore support. At our dealership in the 60s-70s it was common to have a 30-40 unit sold year so we got to know them well from radiator cap to rear cover. Maybe there are cost restraints involved here as far as sleeve cost or machine shop work but for me I would never put old used narrow flange sleeves back in service

 

[JAMH]

Thanks for the input. I'm starting to lean towards switching to the wide flange sleeves but I
have to find a local shop that can do the machining. Am I correct in assuming that the depth of
the ring on the sleeves that fits into the counterbore on both the narrow flange and wide
flange sleeves are the same at 0.25 inch? If the sleeve lands are machined down a couple of
thou then the deck will have to be milled down around 4 thou in order to get 3 - 4 thou of
sleeve protrusion. Is that too much in terms of valve clearance?

 

[buzz saw]

I would absolutely defer to Mel and his years of experience on this engine, he will not steer you wrong. I am A Cummins mechanic, not a Case mechanic so take this for what it's worth. On a Cummins we would machine the counterbores to a depth that would allow for a selective shim under the liner to bring the liner up to the proper protrusion, and leave the deck alone, assuming the block deck is flat and true.

 

[buzz saw]

As far as getting the counterbores cut you may wish to ask your local heavy truck repair places and/or engine distributors, (Cat, Cummins, Detroit Diesel). They are familiar with this type of repair and will have people who do this, or know who in your area does. Although we cut our own counterbores at the shop I work at, there is a local guy who cuts blocks for a lot of truck shops in the area. Your locale may have someone similiar.

 

[JAMH]

I have found a reputable shop that will do the work on the counterbores. The shop owner says he is familiar with the Case 188d engine. He will machine the counterbore diameters out to 4.537 inches to accommodate new wide flange sleeves. He will also take a little bit off the counterbore landings (.001 - .002) to ensure that they are all flat and true and the same on all 4 cylinders. He will also mill the block deck down a bit to achieve the desired sleeve protrusion of .003 - .004 inches. Does that sound about right?

 

[mEl]

(quoted from post at 07:37:51 05/26/21) I have found a reputable shop that will do the work on the counterbores. The shop owner says he is familiar with the Case 188d engine. He will machine the counterbore diameters out to 4.537 inches to accommodate new wide flange sleeves. He will also take a little bit off the counterbore landings (.001 - .002) to ensure that they are all flat and true and the same on all 4 cylinders. He will also mill the block deck down a bit to achieve the desired sleeve protrusion of .003 - .004 inches. Does that sound about right?

That is the process we used, the company makes no shims to bring the sleeves up as they do in the larger diesels. I have cut shims out of shim stock for the small engines. To much off the top of the block can cause clearance problems, I would verify clearance valve to piston on the overlap part of the valve cycle. I have seen evidence of valve relief to valve face contact on 188 engines that were running very well, not ideal but seemed nothing hurt. If you go to the larger sleeve counterbore the head gasket from the later system should be used.

 

[derwen1959]

After the block has been machined and possibly head also will you need to fit washers onto head studs as they could be too long ?
Could there be an alternative available now which was not available 50 years ago?
You all know your engines but I would be very wary of boring out for wide flange liners in an old block