C135 Headbolt and Headgasket questions.

[RedWhiteandBluewoodlaunch]

Hi folks, decided to pull the head off the C135 Swapped Super C finally because some suspicious pushrod noise was really annoying me. Anywho I got a few questions about this sucker.
1. Are the headbolts torque to yield?
2. Can the old headbolts be reused if they are bent?
3. Should I do 65 ft/lbs or 80 ft/lbs with the new gasket?
4. How should I go about cleaning the crap outve the coolant jackets in the block?
Thanks.
-RWB

 

[Janicholson]

Hi folks, decided to pull the head off the C135 Swapped Super C finally because some suspicious pushrod noise was really annoying me. Anywho I got a few questions about this sucker.
1. Are the headbolts torque to yield?
2. Can the old headbolts be reused if they are bent?
3. Should I do 65 ft/lbs or 80 ft/lbs with the new gasket?
4. How should I go about cleaning the crap outve the coolant jackets in the block?
Thanks.
-RWB

They are not, they are old school torque as specified. 4 stages dividing the final torque evenly and following the pattern in the manual.
No bent bolts are not to be used. Used bolts should be wire brushed clean and the holes chased to assure clean assembly. The use of engine assembly lube in the threads is good. SPec is 65 for serial numbers 65,000 or under and 80 to 90 on 65001 and up. plug the lower hose inlet and fill the block with white vinegar use a stick to stir the cavities, for best option take off the side cover and mechanically clean the passages. Jim

 

[Harold Hubbard]

They are not, they are old school torque as specified. 4 stages dividing the final torque evenly and following the pattern in the manual.
No bent bolts are not to be used. Used bolts should be wire brushed clean and the holes chased to assure clean assembly. The use of engine assembly lube in the threads is good. SPec is 65 for serial numbers 65,000 or under and 80 to 90 on 65001 and up. plug the lower hose inlet and fill the block with white vinegar use a stick to stir the cavities, for best option take off the side cover and mechanically clean the passages. Jim

That is still the old C/Super C block, pretty sure there is no side cover. I have worked an engine hard with vinegar in the cooling system, and it did a pretty good job. The only way to get it completely clean is to pull the sleeves, but I don’t think he is ready to do that.

 

[560Dennis]

Suggest you remove the soft plugs from engine block and replace them after cleaning . 75 year old plugs are due to fail .
Clean out and install new plugs in rocker assembly, have the rocker radius redressed so yo can get accurate valve lash settings . Check push rods for straight on flat surface plate .

 

[RedWhiteandBluewoodlaunch]

Suggest you remove the soft plugs from engine block and replace them after cleaning . 75 year old plugs are due to fail .
Clean out and install new plugs in rocker assembly, have the rocker radius redressed so yo can get accurate valve lash settings . Check push rods for straight on flat surface plate .

As far as I've seen the engine doesn't got freeze plugs. Also what is rocker radius? Pretty sure the pushrods are straight but I'll check tonight.

 

[RedWhiteandBluewoodlaunch]

They are not, they are old school torque as specified. 4 stages dividing the final torque evenly and following the pattern in the manual.
No bent bolts are not to be used. Used bolts should be wire brushed clean and the holes chased to assure clean assembly. The use of engine assembly lube in the threads is good. SPec is 65 for serial numbers 65,000 or under and 80 to 90 on 65001 and up. plug the lower hose inlet and fill the block with white vinegar use a stick to stir the cavities, for best option take off the side cover and mechanically clean the passages. Jim

Why was the torque spec change at 65000? Seems odd to change it midway through production. I read about that with new headgaskets they have to be torqued to 80 because of different materials, at least with the stock Super C engine. I looked on Stiener and there are two different headgaskets (a newer composite looking one and a steel one) wondering if I should stick with steel but my dad says I should probably go with a newer style one. Engine SN is 24045.
Thank you for your reply.
Edit: found a manual online for the crawlers and it says they should be torqued between 80-90 ft/lbs. I'm guessing this is because of some design changes or headgasket failure? But with an older engine like mine I should use 65 ft/lbs right? Also what torque specs do you recommend for working my way up to final spec?

 

[used red MN]

The “rocker arm radius” in simple terms is the half moon spot on the rocker that contacts the tip of the valve.
Adding this comment, warm up engine and retorque head for best chance of having a good long lasting gasket seal.

 

[560Dennis]

As far as I've seen the engine doesn't got freeze plugs. Also what is rocker radius? Pretty sure the pushrods are straight but I'll check tonight.

If rocker arent getting oil to the radius that contacts the valve stem . Rapidly wear to the contact radius occurs,resulting, you never adjust the valve s to correct lash of .014 hot with feeler gages

soft plugs then are inside bell housings on that motor.

i use a dremel and recut the radius on the rockers, if to deep I braze the damaged areas and recut the radius, what do when I find damaged rockers , cast is photo of the ones have if you want to A reply.
interesting project

 

[560Dennis]

Definitely recheck the torque on the head after 20 minute or more warm up , a must as suggested . Been surprised on that one on the Farmall C . I also recheck after a month to be sure.

 

[Janicholson]

As 560Dennis suggests, retorquing is a real thing. My methodology is as follows: As bolts under tension rest in their threads they form a stiction barrier. (From the Oxford dictionary -- The friction which tends to prevent stationary surfaces from being set in motion). To eliminate this when retorquing, As I retorque each bolt in the sequence, I turn each fastener in the loosening direction just to break stiction, maybe 5 degrees on the wrench handle that are not measured. I then pull the torque to specification on that bolt and proceed to the next. Jim

 

[560Dennis]

Jim is so right on that.

 

[RedWhiteandBluewoodlaunch]

As 560Dennis suggests, retorquing is a real thing. My methodology is as follows: As bolts under tension rest in their threads they form a stiction barrier. (From the Oxford dictionary -- The friction which tends to prevent stationary surfaces from being set in motion). To eliminate this when retorquing, As I retorque each bolt in the sequence, I turn each fastener in the loosening direction just to break stiction, maybe 5 degrees on the wrench handle that are not measured. I then pull the torque to specification on that bolt and proceed to the next. Jim

Would I have to retorque if I used studs?

 

[used red MN]

Yes, retorque with studs as well. Reestablishing the proper clamping force on the gasket sealing surfaces after its initial compression is what it is all about. Go ahead and go without doing it, the gasket might hold 6 months, a year, it might last as long as there is a fuel available that will run the tractor. Thing is if it starts leaking in a year or two and you did not retorque it then you can’t say you did everything you could “for best chance of having a good long lasting gasket seal” as I said in reply 7.

 

[560Dennis]

I take the studs out to clean threads run 1/2 courses die and clean out tap into block . Fill the blind 1/2 13 holes in block with brake clean and leave it 12 hours ,tell me if any cracks I can’t see. The blind holes are all full next day got a good one. Vacuum it out and run bottom tap into blind hole 1/2 13 . Vacuum out the reside in blind hole.
makes easy to scrape the residue off the block for good seal surface , used brake cleaner and wire brush then scrape it again with carbide scraper,got the tip from a catepliller guy on the your tube , to used the this carbide scraper. Be surprised how crud is still on the block even when it looks good and clean. carbide scraper does a good job.
run 1/2 20 thread die down to base of stud threads . Then run a 1/2 four flflute tap through all the nuts 1/2-20 nuts
I use use light coat 30 wt oil on threads of studs to thread them all in evenly ,on a C it’s about 4.11 inch
you following your manufacturer instructions for head gaskets installation.
Definite : recheck torque of nuts after the warm up Retorque to the numbers I recheck after a month , I find that studs 3,4,5,6,7 nut, studs are more than 10 percent off on retorque ,that’s not acceptable to me
I use a craftsman beam torque wrench
i dId this because I don’t want to be torqued on stud carbon,corrosion ,and new set purchase from machined headed location that will result .
so Press aheadwith your project

 

[RedWhiteandBluewoodlaunch]

Thanks for all the help guys! I'll update yall when I get some time to work on it, maybe tonight. Gotta get the head brought down to our engine builder my dad has known for decades. Surprisingly, the pistons are pretty clean. Two of em had headgaskets leaks around them but for an engine that probably never been taken apart they were clean! Can't say the same for one of the valves though! Bout a 1/4 inch of carbon build up on one of em.

 

[used red MN]

Beware, clean pistons especially showing it around the outer circumference can indicate oil passing by the piston rings.

 

[RedWhiteandBluewoodlaunch]

Beware, clean pistons especially showing it around the outer circumference can indicate oil passing by the piston rings.

That could be a possibility. They did look like they had some oil BUT the pistons don't move one bit in the sleeve. No play at all and what little play they have is probably .001 inch. Never had an issue with it burning oil either. I did dump some seafoam in last year but I doubt it did that good of a job!

 

[RedWhiteandBluewoodlaunch]

I've read about on some other forums and the general consensus is that with "new style head gaskets" the head studs/bolts should be torqued to 85 instead of 65 ft/lbs. I'm guess new style is the MLS head gaskets. So if I go with an MLS should I use 65 or 85 ft/lbs?

 

[560Dennis]

I take the studs out to clean threads run 1/2 courses die and clean out tap into block . Fill the blind 1/2 13 holes in block with brake clean and leave it 12 hours ,tell me if any cracks I can’t see. The blind holes are all full next day got a good one. Vacuum it out and run bottom tap into blind hole 1/2 13 . Vacuum out the reside in blind hole.
makes easy to scrape the residue off the block for good seal surface , used brake cleaner and wire brush then scrape it again with carbide scraper,got the tip from a catepliller guy on the your tube , to used the this carbide scraper. Be surprised how crud is still on the block even when it looks good and clean. carbide scraper does a good job.
run 1/2 20 thread die down to base of stud threads . Then run a 1/2 four flflute tap through all the nuts 1/2-20 nuts
I use use light coat 30 wt oil on threads of studs to thread them all in evenly ,on a C it’s about 4.11 inch
you following your manufacturer instructions for head gaskets installation.
Definite : recheck torque of nuts after the warm up Retorque to the numbers I recheck after a month , I find that studs 3,4,5,6,7 nut, studs are more than 10 percent off on retorque ,that’s not acceptable to me
I use a craftsman beam torque wrench
i dId this because I don’t want to be torqued on stud carbon,corrosion ,and new set purchase from machined headed location that will result .
so Press aheadwith your project

This what I use for current reference.

 

[560Dennis]

I use different install for graphite and steel shim head gaskets than the steel shim on both sides. , Sealants will not stick to graphite, so I don’t use . Theymfg. tell me don’t use it on the graphite side .
Your doing good to go to your local shop, ask them what they use and get it from them or Y T here