Fertilizer value

[cjunrau]

Didnt wait ad to other thread.
Someone mentioned Farmers arent using less even though the price goes up
Just for those who want to figure it out. I have been organic for 11 years and 3 years ago I was so sick off wild millet I ended up planting my first crop of corn. Sprayed with round up once and fertilized $25 an acre. That is all the fertilizer my land has ever seen in 50 years. No manure and no summer fallow.
First year and second year corn did 6 bales an acre cut with haybine and silage bales 5x5.
Last year was 3rd year in a row for corn. I got it custom cut for silage and got 7.3 ton an acre.
Remember this is only one time spraying no fertilizer. Neighbour is what I call convention farming and good crops and j think knower what he is doing. Crop was not as good as we had no rain. He got 11.4 ton an acre. He put on what most farmers do as far as fertilizer goes. I think he said 150-160 lbs of nitrogen. Plus what ever else they do.
I Dont know prices A as Nd bushel an acre as j just make feed. But I had a guy pick some ears off mine and he said it would have gone 140-160 an acre.

I believe I make more with next to no fertilizer than some of these guys with fertilizer. J have weeds that go back in the ground mulch even with spraying but at least the corn gets ahead of it.

So is fertilizer really worth what people are putting on??
Are you loosing bottom line for big yields?
Bragging rights?
If you went half rate for 3 years would you be money ahead?

 

[fastfarmall]

I got a neighbor, who is a organic farmer,he raises a lot of Millet too, white,also some buckwheat and rye,but cant say i ever seen much volunteer millet in the next crop!

 

[rustred]

first of all the big farmers must put a crop in every year. one crop failure and many would be bankrupt. even though they are insured. also a soil sample is done and the fertilizer is applied accordingly. you cant keep taking nutrients out of the soil with out replenishing them. basically less fertilizer used is less crop at harvest. there is a tipping point where too much fertilizer will not be a gain in the end result. but then again that is kind of a residule thing for the next year. far as i am concerned making summer fallow every other year is a good way to go. the big farmers cant do that. quite sure the big farmers have all these questions figured out to suit them selves. i know my fertilizer input bill is double from last year due to this crazy world gone to pot and that russian war. canola is around the 23.00 per bushel mark now. wheat is 13.00/ bu., barley is 8.50.00 /bu. sure it sound good but a person is no farther ahead because the big companies have grabbed their share with both hands. so are we farther ahead,?... NO. you got to figure out what works for you and go accordingly.

 

[paul]

You pose an interesting question. It depends so much on expectations and goals and then the dirt and climate you have.

Its been said if our national corn yield goes down 10 bu an acre we have a real disaster on our hands. Any one field I might get 110 bu or 203 bu depending on the weather; but nationally that averages out.

You can mine p and k out of good dirt for a long time. Eventually you fall off the cliff where it gets used up and yields fall a lot. Until then everything looks fine.

Corn needs n, so something is going on there where some n was always supplied? Manure or it used to be a hog pen or you have very high organic matter soil?

We add sulfur, boron, and other micro nutrients too. You will not have all of these in balance.

Most of us grid sample and apply maybe every 2.5 acres a different amount of fertilizer to balance each square of dirt a different amount to use the fertilizer where it is needed, not just apply the same amount everywhere.

If you have great soil to start with and keep your expectations low, you can get by with slathering some fertilizer every now and then and call it good. Not the best use of resources tho.

Paul

 

[Timmycornpicker]

the regenerative agriculture folks are rediscovering some things about soil health that had been forgotten in the chemical age. Cover crops, non-synthetic soil amendments, soil critters. I've been studying their practices with interest.

 

[redforlife]

I might point out that plants need moisture (rain) to utilize the amount of fertilizer put on. If you put on a full rate of fertilizer, and you have a dry year, the plant is not going to utilize all the fertilizer you put on.
Now, on the other hand, if you put on a partial rate or perhaps no fertilizer, and by chance have a WET year (lots of rain), the plant is going to use up what fertilizer is there untill its gone, starve itself of nutrients after that, and that's when it'll start affecting your yields (number of bushels). That's when you'll see what should of been 200 bushel an acre corn, only yield 125 or whatever. All because of lack of fertilizer. That's when you won't be laughing and saying (I knew I could do it with less fertilizer).
To answer your question more directly, the guys that are doing it right, are probably doing soil testing in the fall or winter, and using that information to adjust rates of what they put on. Is what they are doing by soil testing, is seeing what nutrients are left in the ground that wasn't used up in the previous production year. The guys that are doing it right, are also likely not cutting corners so close that thier just enough, doesn't turn out to be NOT enough. Always a surplus in the ground, and not a total depletion.

Sounds to me like you left the ORGANIC program. I would think spraying round up would disqualify you. I for one, don't see the benefit of being partially organic, and not seeing premium organic market dollars out of what you produce. I would think that would be something that you would want to be all the way into, or all the way out of. No, in the middle of the road, or straddling the fence on, would be beneficial on that, I wouldn't think.

There are alot of tight, greedy farmers out there. Won't spend an extra dollar on NOTHING. I'm sure there's a bunch that do what your talking about. In my opinion, they don't do as well over time. Those are the ones that get by ok on a dry year, but miss out on the bountiful harvest on the good years though. Or, not have it as good on the good years, I guess I should say.

 

[paul]

Any of the systems, organic, conventional, non-gmo.... its all the same game. Those that pay attention to details will do better.

Now a days soil testing is old news. The real detail guys and gals are also doing tissue testing of the plants through the year, so thry can see what is both in the soil and what the plant is using every week. Sometimes there appears to be enough nutrients in the soil, but for some reason the plants arent getting them. Typically you learn a little, but you learn and can do better the next year from what you learn this time through.....

Also many are turning to spoon feeding, nitrogen anyhow, and spreading the N 2-3 times a year as the crop needs it. If you see a really good crop you can add more; if a drought or flood or whatever is stressing the crop to poor, you can cut back on the N you apply.

Its not the 1970s any more.

Which is funny coming from me, as most of my equipment I farm with was built in the 1980s.... ha.

P and K you can sprinkle on and it mostly stays there, if you dont use it this year it will help your crop next year or the year after. So its good.

Nitrogen is the one that likes to get away from you, for the grass crops like corn and wheat and such, that you really need to match up what you are applying to what the crop will use in a few months.

Good conversation, there are different views and they all add to the knowledge base.

Paul

 

[Bill(Wis)]

Paul: You bring up a good point. I'm, here in New Orleans at the Commodity Classic and what you mentioned came up in a presentation by Marion Calmer on Thursday. It's being followed up on later this morning by Dr Fred Below, Univ of Il, and that is vertical stratification of soil nutrients, most notably P & K. Calmer has been into no-til and had noticed that his corn wasn't getting the P & K it should have been getting in accordance to what he was applying. This was confirmed with tissue samples. So, he designed a soil test probe that can accurately measure soil samples vertically by the inch. He found he had high levels of P & K in the top few inches of soil but low levels down deeper where the plants need it. The plant roots need to find P & K because P & K don't move around much. So, he broke out his old moldboard plow and plowed a 5 acre test plot, down to about 8 to 9 inches deep. Through subsequent vertical soil testing he found that he had moved the surface P & K down somewhat which did produce a better corn crop that year. Follow-up testing is to be carried out in the near future. I hope to find out a little more about this later this morning.

 

[ss55]

To retain much nitrogen doesn't manure need to be incorporated soon after application?

 

[redforlife]

I always figured it would be best to work manure into the ground after it was spread. I guess if a guy chose not to (like a strict no till farmer would do), you probably wouldn't see much results the first year it was spread. Nutrients from it would have to leech into the ground to do the plants any good.
I usually either work it in, or only spread it as a surplus to the fertilizer already applied.
A guy once told me that if you expected first year results from use, it really should be liquified and knifed in. Not sure that this guy was talking from experience (he has no livestock). But what he says makes sense to me. Sure makes a good point.

 

[1948CaseVAI]

That is great that you are satisfied with that. But many producers (producers instead of farmers) would not be satisfied with small to medium yield, and the world cannot all continue to eat if they were happy with mediocre crops. Really what guys here do isn't the big question - the bigger issue is what do the really big boys do.