Ford 3000 Series Backhoe?

[jaluhn]

I'm looking at a Ford 3000 series TLB and have a few questions on it. From what I've been able to find it's a 66 3500 (or 3550) diesel with a 735 loader and 723 12' back hoe.

Here's the numbers:

Transmission:
6K18-B
35014E
C168760 7B25

Engine:
N246510

Loader:
T9-541
Serial# 510

Hoe:
model 723
T9-500
Serial 1737

The tractor was a stuck motor and would need boring and pistons at a minimum. Supposedly it was running and working fine and was used by a guy to level his house pad and ranch work. Says it wouldn't turn over one day and he never did figure out why. He pulled the head but then got deployed (Navy SEAL) and while he was gone the cover came off the motor and it got rained on. All 3 cylinders have significant rust and would need to be bored but the rest of the tractor looks decent if dirty. The hoses and tires are all pretty rotten, but that's expected. It reads 4175 hours, not sure how accurate that is. The hoe and loader both look very clean, we could only find one place that looks like it was welded. Hydraulic cylinders have some pitting but I think they could be salvaged at least for my uses.

The trans is the select-o-speed unit. Supposedly it all worked, but there's no way to test it and it's been sitting ~10 years.

I can get this thing for $800-1000, if I don't pick it up he's thinking of scrapping it and I hate to see that. On the other hand, I don't really need another project.

My questions:
1) What's involved in getting the engine out and rebuilding it? I've rebuilt pickup diesel and gas engines but never gotten into industrial type stuff. I'd guess it wouldn't be much different other than heavier. Correct?

2) How available are parts? The only info I can find on the 3550 is that is had a 183 CID engine but I can't find any other info on it. Seems like maybe it's a typo and it's actually a 175. It's a 4.2" bore motor.

3) How are these tractors / hoe reputed?

4) What's the chance of the trans having problems? I'm leery cause it looks like an early powershift setup to me, and thus likely to be problematic and expensive to fix....

5) The deal would include a block and crank off a 4000 series, not sure what motor other than it has a 4.4" bore. Would it be worth working this block instead of rebuilding the current motor? Could it even be used?

6) Does anyone have specs on the backhoe / loader? I can't find anything on either.

7) Is there a service manual that covers the industrial units? The ITT manual seems to cover the basics, but the hoe and loader and whatever is different for an industrial tractor is not covered.

Thank you,
~John

 

[Sean in PA]

35014E - 3500 diesel independent 540rpm PTO and Select-O-Speed transmission.

C168760 - This is a 1967 serial number.

7B25 - Tractor left the assembly line on February 25, 1967.

6K18-B -Transmission was assembled on October 18, 1966 by the day shift.

Attempted answers to your questions:

1) Getting the engine out involves a little more than removing the engine from a car or truck, as the engine is part of the frame on that model tractor. You will have to brace both sides of the front axle and support te bottom of the engine and te bottom of the transmission and then split the engine from the transmission, and then with the engine attached to a hoist, disconnect the front bolster from the engine. The front bolster is what the front axle assembly attaches to.

2) Parts should be available. The model number you posted is a 3500, not a 3550, so it should be a 175 cubic inch engine if it's a diesel like the model number says it is.

3) They've got a good reputation, as long as they weren't abused. Sounds like this one was treated well until it wasn't.

4) If the transmission was maintained properly and is running good, then it should be fine as long as you maintain it properly. Of course you have no idea what shape it's in with the engine not running, so it's a crap shoot. If it does need parts, it can be expensive or not possible, as some parts are only avialable if you're lucky enough to find them in a salvage yard, while others are still available from yur local New holland dealer, but be prepared to give up your first born for some of them.

5) Block and crank form a 4000 would be a201 cubic inch if it's a diesel, or it could be a 192 or 201 if it's gas.I don't know whether any 4000 block could be used with the head off of a 3500 though. If you could find the rest of the correct 40000 engine parts, the whole engine could be used to replace the 3500 engine, as everything would bolt right up.

6) I don't have any personal knowledge of that loader or backhoe model, other than they seem to be the standard hoe and loader models that were put on the 3500 tractors and most people who have had them have generally had good comments about them.

7) For manuals, click on the "Tractor Manuals" liink at the top left corner of the page you're reading. Select Ford in the drop-down list and type in 3500 in the model number field and then click the search button.

 

[jaluhn]

Sean, Thank you.

Yes, should have mentioned that it is diesel.

What's the difference between a 3500 & 3550?

How far forward does the engine have to go? Is it possible to remove it with the crank stuck or will I need to free it up, then unbolt the torque converter and then remove it? It looked to me like it wouldn't be that difficult to unbolt the loader frames and block/trans bolts and then roll the whole motor/front end asm forward but how far will I need to get it to lift out?

Is there anything that different on the rebuild itself?

The other block is a diesel. What is different between the 2 motors other than block and pistons? I'm not sure the block is usable but it might be an option if the current one can't be made usable.

What's one of these tractors worth in running condition? Is there a market for the hoe & loader on their own?

Thanks,
~John

 

[jaluhn]

Got some pics here for anyone who's interested:

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[Brian Allen]

jaluhn
Keep in mind that the tachometer might not have worked for a long time, or, on it's second time around. That is going to be a lot of work to get it back into a shape where it could be used.
The motor is still re-buildable. Check the splines on the input clutch when you split and repair, if there is any wear at all.
It will be quite a project.
Brian
PS "The price is right"

 

[jaluhn]

Thanks Brian.

How do you get to the input clutch spline? Will the torque converter just pull out the same way an automotive unit does? How much of a PIA is it to replace the input shaft seal?

From what I can see it looks like the tractor was decently taken care of and it hasn't been out in the weather too much so hopefully everything is reasonably functional.

My big concern is the transmission. Engine looks like I can work it without too much trouble, it's if there trans or hydraulic problems that worries me. What are the chances something would be stuck/damaged due to sitting? All of the hydraulic control valves were free so that's a fairly good sign.

Thanks,
~John

 

[Sean in PA]

I believe that the main difference between the 3500 and 3550 is the rear axle. The 3500 has the standard 3000 series rear axle with the external drum brakes, while the 3550 has the rear axle from the 4000 series with the inboard wet disk-pack brakes. Plus, the 3550/4000 rear axle is much stronger than the 3000/3500 rear axle.

 

[Brian Allen]

jaluhn
There isn't any torque convertor, there is a small clutch instead. The split is not difficult on these tractors without the loader, more of a PITA with one.
(Don't forget to block the front pivot with hardwood wedges) The splines quite often are stripped on these clutches the input shaft also may need repaired. John Smith has a procedure to repair these. I have not had the pleasure of working on an SOS, but my friend has 3-3000 tractors and a 5000 with the SOS transmissions and he likes them.
Brian

 

[jaluhn]

So how does the SOS work then? I must have some sort of a fluid clutch somewhere, right? Can the input shaft be removed without major disassembly of the trans?

Well, I told the guy I take it this afternoon. Offered him $900. Should have gone lower, he'd have taken a fair bit less, but oh well, he's a nice guy and is being good to work with so I don't mind. Going to bring this beast home next week I think and then go from there.

Any suggestions for what brand to go with for a rebuild kit?

 

[Sean in PA]

(quoted from post at 22:54:44 06/27/12) So how does the SOS work then? I must have some sort of a fluid clutch somewhere, right?

There is no fluid clutch or torque converter on an S-O-S transmission. I don't fully understand it myself, but here is what I understand. Anyone out there please jump in to correct anything that I have wrong, as I would like to learn more myself.

The first thing after the engine is what they call the "torque limiting clutch". It is in the same location as a regular clutch would be on a manual transmission, but it is always engaged, and I think that it is designed to slip if the stress (torque) on it gets to be too much, thus the name "torque limiting". The TLC drives the transmission input shaft. The hydraulic pump is driven off of the input shaft whenever the engine is running. The input shaft is also connected to the first planetary gear system, but when the tractor is started in park (it must be in park for the safety switch to allow it to start) that first set of gears is as far as the power gets. There are 3 planetary gear sets with bands and servos to control them by applying or releasing pressure on various components of the planetary system to get the various gear ratios.

The inching pedal (looks and sort of acts like a clutch pedal) controls a diverter valve so that when the pedal is pushed, all hydraulic flow is diverted back to the sump and the transmission is effectively in neutral and the back wheels can freewheel if you are on an incline. There is also a N (Neutral) gear selector position that results in the same thing so you don't have to keep the incing pedal down all of the time.

When the gear selector is in P (Park) and the inching pedal is let out, the output of the transmission is isolated from the input and the output is locked in place so the tractor won't move. The output is also locked whenever the pump is not running, which should only be when the engine isn't running.

When the gear selector is in any other position than P or N, and the inching pedal is let out, the hydraulic pressure through the control valve (which is what the gear selector controls) provides pressure to various spots in the planetary system to apply or release the servos and bands and change which gear ratios are engaged.

 

[jaluhn]

Thanks Sean.

So what should I be looking at when i pull the motor out? Is there a front seal I should change? Pilot bearing, anything like that?

How far forward does the motor have to come to clear the input shaft? My hope is there enough room between the front frame and loader crossmember to roll it forward with the loader still down. Looks like I've got 4" or so, so hopefulyl enough.

 

[Sean in PA]

I have been lucky enough that I haven't ever had to split mine (knock wood) so I can't be much help with that. Hopefully someone with more experience in that are will chime in.

 

[Brian Allen]

I had the front axle assembly off my 555 Ford when I repaired my motor, but, I have not split mine yet.
I wedged the axle and moved the complete front end about 5 or six feet forward (with a floor jack) to have room to work on the motor. I also blocked the loader up in the air out of the way. I have a friend who has a 545A Ford and he had to remove his loader first, to get at his engine.
Regards
Brian

 

[GT65]

Jaluhn,
Grab it quick! The backhoe unit alone is easily worth what you can get everything for! Plus you possibly stop another senseless "SCRAPPING"! It"s a WIN/WIN!!
If you don"t want lt,depending on where you are, I figure just about any regular on this board within 100-150 miles of you would take it.I know I would!
GT65

 

[jaluhn]

(quoted from post at 15:42:47 06/28/12) Jaluhn,
Grab it quick! The backhoe unit alone is easily worth what you can get everything for! Plus you possibly stop another senseless "SCRAPPING"! It"s a WIN/WIN!!
If you don"t want lt,depending on where you are, I figure just about any regular on this board within 100-150 miles of you would take it.I know I would!
GT65

I got it. $900. Haven't picked it up yet though. The landlord is going to be thrilled..... :lol:

Thanks for all the replies, I'm sure I'll have more questions. The goal at the moment is going to be getting it home and then trying to get the motor out in the next couple weeks as I'll be gone essentially from mid july-dec. (school in RI and then deployed)

Thanks,
~John

 

[GT65]

God Bless You and stay Safe!
GT65

 

[Brian Allen]

jaluhn
Plaster grease, or heavy oil on those rusty cylinder rods.
Then clean them up and polish with emery cloth before you cycle them.
You will be very busy.
Keep us posted!
Good luck!
Regards
Brian

 

[jaluhn]

Sound advice, was already planning to do that. The outrigger arms got folded up without that, but I should be able to to the rest of them. The owner had to fold them to move it. The tractor is sitting right over his septic tank and said tank has reached capacity..... hence the need to sell the tractor quick. :lol:

Probably woln't get much done with this for a while but I'll keep ya'll posted. I'm sure I'll have questions.
~John

 

[Tony Jacobs]

Hello John , The lift arms and the bucket will HAVE TO COME OFF to get the engine out , you need way more than 4 inches . Thanks Tony

 

[Tony Jacobs]

Hello Sean , The 3500 and 3550 also use different engines 175 vs. 192 . The 3500 has its own COMPLETELY DIFFERENT REAR END and does share ANYTHING with a 3000 AG tractor , Center housing and axle tubes are larger and thicker , axle shafts are larger diameter , ring and pinion( 7.17 only gear ratio ) and diff is larger , even the bracket where you attach your top link is 3500 only , brakes shoes and drums are also 3500 only and there is 2 different designs of brake shoes . 3550's use the 4500 rear axle not the 4000 AG tractor axle because both use engine mounted hydraulic pumps not internal pump like a 4000 and 4500's have a different gear ratio . 3500's and 3550's were built specifically by Ford to compete with John Deere in some special Govt. Bidding Contracts . Thanks Tony

 

[jaluhn]

Tony,

What was the difference between the 192 & 175? Stroke? external_link mentions a 192 but doesn't have any info and I can't find any other info on it. All the other things I've looked at show a 175 as being in all 3000 series. Any ideas for a rebuild kit source?

Why does the engine have to come so far forward? It seemed like all I'd need was to get it forward far enough forward for the clutch to clear the input shaft and bellhousing. Is there something I'm missing????

Thanks,
~John

 

[jaluhn]

Are you sure about the 192 Tony? I rechecked and tractordata shows a 183 diesel which I can't find anywhere..... I can find a 192 3 cylinder diesel, but it looks like a late 80's engine, not 60's. I find something about a 192 4 cylinder *gas* motor in 4000 series tractors.

Can you look it up off the casting code?

 

[Tony Jacobs]

Hello John, You can"t find the info because you don"t have a 3000 series tractor. You have a 3500 series, which is Industrial only and the only one that used the 192 engine . 3000 series is AG tractor only , 3400 series is Utility tractor only and 3500 series is Industrial tractor only. Many parts do interchange between the three but many do not, many parts are available on some models but not all also. All you have to clear is the Bellhousing but you can"t do it in 4 inches, the loader has to come off as does the complete front end assembly, I just roll the nose off the tractor with a jack. I don"t buy engine kits, I just buy what I need when my machinist does the work and decides how far we need to go with each individual engine rebuild . Thanks Tony